Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

RonnyRulz
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Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby RonnyRulz » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:20 am

I will be as brief as I can.

It is without question that one of the strongest & most impressive, as well as expensive features of any superhero MMO has always been the Character Creator / Costume system.

Shamefully, no superhero MMO does this design principle justice. Not even close. You make your hero and later some alternative costumes, and that's it. As a game designer myself, I do not understand why there isn't an much a focus on this feature as possible, to maximize the value of its great cost and powerful impact on fun.

Champions Online did work for the Nemesis system, allowing players to not only use the character/costume creator for their heroes but also their villains and enemies. Later on, City of Heroes did work to allow people to make their own enemies as well, in their own missions. This seems like bare minimum to me, though. City of Heroes also never even considered the obvious: allow mastermind pets to be customizable.

So I have three questions, which I ask fully understanding the Commander is a post-release archetype and all of this is likely post-release ideas-guy discussion:

1. My primary question: Will Commanders be able to design the costumes of their own pets? If this is not currently planned, I strongly encourage this to be part of the discussion when designing the Commander class. Giving players more use of the game's best feature is a no-brainer as a game designer, but also a no-brainer as a gamer. So few masterminds could be realized in City of Villains because of the strict limitations. You couldn''t even change the gender of your human minions!

2. Are there any design ideas or plans (I assume post-release) to implement some kind of system (any type) where players will be able to make their own nemesis/villains? Even if just an expansion idea, I think this should get serious consideration. The Nemesis system in CO was one of the most interesting things, and something many remember fondly.

3. Are there any other features or ideas ever discussed among the team, even in passing, that will link to this core feature of superhero MMO's? I think anything and everything we can think of should be considered. Maximizing the time spent in the Character Creator / Costume system is, IMO, just good business in a genre where some players spend more time creating characters than actually playing.

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Gerald_Deemer
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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby Gerald_Deemer » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:29 am

Regarding your point no. 2:
As far as I know there was a discussion for letting players BE a villain. So there would be no need to create your nemesis when you actually can play one by yourself.
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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby Consultant » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:45 am

These are three good ideas, but right now we continue to be focused on building a great, but small game that can be expanded after launch. So we are not saying no to any of the three ideas -- but they are not being actively developed right now due to resource limitations.

One thing to realize is this -- once we get a launched version of SoH with revenues coming in, most revenues will go to two purposes. first to keep the game rrunning of course, and second to create new content. Once we get there, we will be working with the community of players to see what they most want, and building that.

You asked if we have discussed these ideas internally, and the answer is yes to both of the first two.

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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby A1fighter » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:06 pm

CO is the king of customization and immersion. I played CO 1st, then CoX. City of Heroes felt like a serious downgrade in terms of customization after playing CO. Perhaps I would have felt differently if CoX was my 1st superhero mmo.

Costumes for pets is something I created a thread about. I like this idea, as many do.

Nemesis is something every superhero game should have, but does not. I mean, we are going to act like Batman, Superman, Hulk, etc do not have nemesis?

Another thing people talked about, (Which is similar to pets in some respect) is a transformation power. This seems to be the easiest, depending on the number of fauna in your game. CO also has this feature. DCUO does as-well.

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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby Consultant » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:04 am

Transformation is a frequently requested power. We are aware of this. :)

It's also kind of complicated. For transformation, again we are not saying no, we are saying not at first. It really is important for us to exhibit scope control, and not let our game design run away from us.

But good thinking!

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A1fighter
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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby A1fighter » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:14 pm

Personally, I am not expecting any new power-sets anytime soon. More interested in seeing how the beta turns out. However, transformations is something that DCUO on PS3 and the dated CoH had. It is something CoT or SoH should be able to do flawlessly, after they get in a favorable position.

It would be cool if the commander & transformation powers grew with the game. What I mean is this, with every new fauna foe that is released, it gives commanders and transformers potential candidates for pets and transformations. Far too often, games release a ton of cool new fauna, and the pet classes are stuck with the same few pets or transformations for years.

WoW is the only mmo whom updated their pet classes with fauna releases, but Blizaard has other problems now, but I digress.

As for customization, if the devs had some options for pets, I do not think that would be too much of a hassle. For example, if there were a T-rex, the devs ultimately choose what can be customized about it. It may not be much........but I don't think anyone is expecting a CC for the pets.

For now, I am awaiting a firm beta date. At first, I was simply interested in how the beta turns out. After the CC randomizer video, I am interested in participating. Not sure where the donation page went though :lol:

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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby Consultant » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:30 am

Did COH have character transformation powers for players? As I've said elsewhere, I'm not playing on the private servers until NC Soft clarifies their position, so it has been 7 years for me...can you give some examples?

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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby Dying Breath » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:05 am

Did COH have character transformation powers for players? As I've said elsewhere, I'm not playing on the private servers until NC Soft clarifies their position, so it has been 7 years for me...can you give some examples?
We had Kheldians with Nova and Dwarf transformations. Powers of this sort are harder than just plugging in some graphics and swapping the character model - each form had its own separate powers that could be enhanced. IIRC adding this functionality to the level-up process was non-trivial.

If all you're looking for is a graphic change, then simple costume change emotes would work, providing you can change the body morphs (CoH had an expansion pack that allowed that), or skeleton (CoH still restricted you to the standard bodies, no animal skeletons that I'm aware of).

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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby Golden Ace » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:14 pm


We had Kheldians with Nova and Dwarf transformations. Powers of this sort are harder than just plugging in some graphics and swapping the character model - each form had its own separate powers that could be enhanced. IIRC adding this functionality to the level-up process was non-trivial.

If all you're looking for is a graphic change, then simple costume change emotes would work, providing you can change the body morphs (CoH had an expansion pack that allowed that), or skeleton (CoH still restricted you to the standard bodies, no animal skeletons that I'm aware of).
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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby JestersGhost » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:06 am

2. Are there any design ideas or plans (I assume post-release) to implement some kind of system (any type) where players will be able to make their own nemesis/villains? Even if just an expansion idea, I think this should get serious consideration. The Nemesis system in CO was one of the most interesting things, and something many remember fondly.
It's certainly something a lot of us would like to see - I've written a fairly detailed design doc for the way one such system could work, but obviously the more ideas on what it might look like are welcome :)
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RonnyRulz
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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby RonnyRulz » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:07 pm

Great posts.

Everything I mentioned in the OP, I naturally assumed is all post-release content. I definitely dont expect Commander to be in at launch.

As for being able to play a Villain, that would be very awesome. I actually enjoyed City of Villains more than Heroes. Robbing banks and gunning down cops, heroes, and civilians was just so fun.

Even as Villains, a Nemesis system is definitely something that would work great. Just as Heroes have Nemesis, a Villain does too. They could be a Hero or another Villain.

Expanding on that idea, I could definitely see a better Nemesis system than what CO had. Not just one Nemesis? But multiple.

What would be really cool is if at certain level markers, you unlocked a new Nemesis type. With different types. The Nemesis who is as strong as you. The Nemesis who is stronger and requires teamups. And finally and most importantly, an EPIC Nemesis which requires the teamup of BOTH Heroes and Villains.

I would love to be able to play with my wife and friends, having our own nemesis, but creating a shared super nemesis and that letting us group with heroes & villains to take down the bigger threat.

Like when Heroes & Villains teamup to beat villains like Thanos or Galactus, or when Magneto would teamup with the X-Men.

Anyway, just some fun thoughts as the idea of playing Villains too IMO makes that Nemesis system even better, not obsolete.

Above all else, it is great to know the devs have talked about the Commander customizing their own pets. I would die for that in City of Villains. It was always my dream to have custom henchmen with my main.

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Re: Rough Question seeking Vague Answer With No Promises: Commander Archetype & Nemesis

Postby RonnyRulz » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:22 pm

I would honestly prefer Commander to pick their pet's powers, but be able to customize the pets with the same Character Creator the heroes use.

In City of Heroes for example, you'd still be limited to your pets having the same powers. Zombies melee. Thugs dw guns. Mercs AR. etc. But being able to use the same CC means your imagination is the limit.

For the devs it is all reusing the same content, so it is cheaper. No need to design, update, or spend even a second on the Commander's pet art, design, or CC. It is the same thing.

Also who are we kidding? The coolest class in any video game ever made would be a Ship of Heroes Commander who looks like Professor X and has 6 heroes of their own, each unique with their own chosen and customized power. Obviously theyd be super weak compared to a real hero but thats the point of the commander archetype in balance. Heck, you could even choose their powers as your power choice upgrade.

I would probably just play exclusively Commanders for the entire time I played.

I also just for ideas, would like to throw out the idea of instead of a CoV Mastermind for Commander, to have the Commander class actually be an invisible hero who basically is multiple pets. (And if all pets die, they die.) And to make it a choice each power upgrade to either make a pet stronger (minion --> lieutenant || pet +1 power) or add another pet (+1 minion). This way you could have 6+ weak pets or 2 strong ones, it being up to you.

Or have that be in addition to the Mastermind Archetype. Call the archetype the "Team" archetype and start it off with 2 weak pets and no hero (invisible or options to be radio signals or wisp or ghost or things like that but limited). Reusing the Mastermind (Commander) content already in the game to make the "Team" archetype so it cuts down on scope since so much is reused and both are very similar. Or the "Team" can be a powerset of Mastermind AT.

I'd love to have 4 pets with 2 powers each, but those powers be different, than to be 1 pet all with the same powers.

Honestly the "Team" AT sounds so cool, I might even be willing to volunteer to implement it. I am a game programmer myself, and have been working in gamedev for the past 9 years. Being able to contribute such an idea is one of my biggest dreams.

TLDR: I want to be a team of 4 xmen with each having their own CC costume build and power choice. Thanks.


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