Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

awais142
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Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby awais142 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Look at CoH, the game had an entire team and made the game awesome. These companies responsible for valiance online, city of titans and ship of heroes, really should of tied their efforts together to make 1 amazing game. I dont see why they couldnt just put their egos aside and do it for the passion of the genre.

Now we gotta wait god knows how long, thanks to a split effort, and much shorter than what could of been crew that has to test so many things at a much slower pace.

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Golden Ace
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Golden Ace » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:46 pm

well lets look at these other games shall we?

CoT and valiance started almost immediately after CoH shut down. CoT even got kickstarter funding. and after all these years what have they produced? nothing of note.

Had either been halfway competent they would have had a game out years ago and SoH probably wouldn't have started.

meanwhile SoH with no kickstarter funding and having started years after the others is by far the furthest along. further, at this point in time, trying to combine the three games into one combined game is frankly impossible and not worth the effort. we're not even using the same platforms these things just don't combine that easy.

meanwhile we are much much further than they are.

have either of the other done a character creator alpha yet? we did our first one in 2017, we'll have our second one (CCT beta) soon with a chance to run around in the city once you create your character and collect a badge or two. all they have shown was small snippets of theirs CCT strung together.

CoT has yet to show a finished city that non-devs can visit. We have shown Apotheosis City off many times to press, supporters and the public.

We have a tested combat system (we did a combat alpha last year with supporters), We also did a login test with many players logged in at once running around in different characters. neither of them has yet to have either.

hell if we had half the funding CoT had we would have launched already.

The SoH Dev team is very open with what is going on with the game, even when it comes to delays.
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Blaze Rocker » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:34 am

There ended up being multiple CoH successor projects and each project had devs with a different vision for their game than the others. Everybody had their own ideas and no one group was willing to compromise with another. It just happens. I create power sets on paper as a hobby and if I was developing my own CoH-style game to utilize those sets I'd do a number of things different from what Paragon Studios did with CoH. Ask anyone that loved CoH how they would make a successor game and you'll get a different vision from each one.

It stinks, but that's just how it goes. :|
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Consultant » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:37 am

We like to think that we did more than the usual market research before starting SoH. One of the things that we did was to look at other MMOs and see how long they took to create, how many people and how much money they needed to bring the vision to life. For example, it takes about 4 years, 8 months to make an MMO like we are creating. Plus or minus a couple of years.

We have a specific business process we are using to develop SoH at a low cost and to create the features and player experience that we want to deliver. Part of that process is undiluted unity of leadership. On our team we know we have very limited resources, we know exactly what we are trying to deliver, and what we are leaving for later.

If the teams had combined in some way, we would have lost that. The combined team would have had a serious internal problem -- whose vision would have been implemented? Not only would we have had engine incompatibility, but also many other issues. What would NOT have happened is that all of the benefits of each teams' vision would have been combined, and everything would have gotten done as if the best people for each task would have been focused on that task. It would have been chaos instead.

Better to have multiple teams. Each team can focus on what it thinks should be done, without confusion, and the community gets more options in the end.

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olepi
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby olepi » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:44 am

This reminds me of an old Computer Science book: The Mythical Man-Month.

It describes how a large software project got behind, and so they added a lot of staff to it. Progress slowed down even more. It turns out that sheer numbers of developers isn't a guarantee of success.

The short version is: if a woman takes 9 months to make a baby, we could hire 9 women and get a baby in one month!
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby GladDog » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:20 am

I'll add a bit to what Consultant said.

To answer your question, VO and H&V are using different game engines from SoH, and their assets would not cross over. CoT has designed a game with completely different requirements and features, and even though they are using the same game engine, it would be a HUGE task to port everything together. Would it get either game released quicker? No. So combining projects would not be feasible.

CoT received their Kickstarter money in October of 2013. A few months after they started working they switched from Unreal Engine 3 to UE4, which they claimed would delay the expected launch to 2016, but would be worth it. While they have released a few demos, they are few and far between, and reports on progress are also rare. They are not making the parts of their game network friendly. In the few demos, if the character on the screen looks away from the small demo areas these videos are done in, the fps falls drastically. They are doing the same things that CoH did, not worrying about player 'footprint' (how much network bandwidth needs to be dedicated to each character). This was not a big deal with CoH's very basic character models, but is a big deal with UE4 levels of detail. I'm sure they will fix this once they have more than a dozen players on the screen and see incredible lag, but they have not done anything a bout this yet.

Valiance Online started up as well, with a very different vision, somewhat akin to Marvel 2099. They are using the Unity engine for their game. VO released some VERY skittish Alpha tests, ,mainly of their CCT. However, I was unable to do anything at all in the frst two, and when I got into the third the costume creator was VERY limited. They released a player alpha in 2018, but there has been not a peep from them about progress in the game for quite a while. Also wanted to say that this game's graphics are not up to 2019 standards, and are on par with older versions of Champion Online.

Then there is Heroes and Villains. That project was started by a couple of members of the MWM team (the people making CoT) that were dissatisfied with the vision of their game. They are using Hero Engine 2, the upgrade to the one used by Elder Scrolls Online. After some initial progress and a lot of artwork, the team seems to be down to two people. They release progress updates every week, but have almost nothing to show people.

With this, in 2016 it was easy to see it would be a very long time before a spiritual successor to CoH would be on the horizon.

One of the CoT Kickstarter donators (Consultant) immediately saw the problem. In a nutshell, they have no one on their teams that understands the business side of these games. He and a few others on the HGC team had invested in the CoT kickstarter, and were a bit anxious waiting to see some results. So after realizing there was no real sign of a successor releasing even in the next two years, Consultant applied his business acumen to get Ship of heroes off the ground. and has worked tirelessly to build a team to get the project rolling and advancing. Have no doubt that the reason SoH has made so much remarkable progress is because of the CEO.

Heroic Games Corp is looking forward to the day that real income is being generated so they can put together a permanent team and continue their vision. BTW, the team is not restricted to a very tight vision. They are looking for input from the player base. So when you start seeing stuff being shown in videos or game demos and you have an idea, SPEAK UP! The team truly wants to hear the player's ideas.

Don't get me wrong; I really hope all of these games release and do well. Even with the CoH private servers out there, there is a huge hole in the MMORPG superhero world. However, with the quality design people and a very good business sense to their company, I think that SoH will release way ahead of the rest of the pack.
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Golden Ace » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:37 am

Once again GladDog shows why he is the guru of all superheroe MMOs

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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Actjcksn » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:01 pm

I love the explanations! Knowledge is Good! :D
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Gerald_Deemer » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:53 am

Thank you Gladdog. This was very insightful. Even the "normal" players and backers can see who is doing the most prominent progress.
This community will soon grow.
It`s like the community from Star Citizen. They all spill over to Dual Universe because they want to see results. They want so play (in foreseeable future).
Meanwhile I have no doubt that SOH will be the most successful Superhero MMO RPG out there.
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LsyaRaiya
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby LsyaRaiya » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:09 am

I agree that there are some great minds out there in this industry that could make great things together, but I've seen too many small game companies get taken over by larger ones, or merged into others; and it went downhill after that.

This is not a dig at the OP. I understand the thought and don't disagree with it completely, it's just that when you get more and more people involved it really changes the business infrastructure and not always in a good way.

All of these I witnessed the results myself.

Gamestorm - $9.99 a month gave access to all of their online games which were pretty good at the time (mid to late 90's) - Taken over by EA and destroyed.
Everquest - Verant then SOE and now Daybreak. Yeah, EQ is actually still out there, but it's been turned into something unrecognizable. EQ2 is still there, but uninteresting (at least to me). EQNext looked very promising...it was canned.
Shadowbane - Wolfpack. Then Ubisoft became the publisher and started dictating changes to the developer. By release time it was something very different and turned into another MMO clone which was NOT what it was designed to be.
CoH - Cryptic. Great game! NCSoft came along and well, we know what happened after that.
Perfect World Enterprises snatched up some decent MMOs and turned them into another one of their MMO clones. I stopped playing them after that, because they all felt the same with just different graphics and themes.

There are others that have slipped my mind at the moment.

I'm sure there are some that benefited from a merger or take over, but mostly what I've experienced has been the game's original vision was good and then transformed into something simplistic to make as much $$$$ as possible before killing it off. I would hate to see SoH have the happen.

Behind every game is a business model. And yes, revenue is mandatory to stay in business. There's a buffer area where you can still provide a good product to the customers and make good income vs. just throwing something out there that rakes in the money for a while but is poor quality. The latter is what I've seen larger companies focus on.

Currently, I see SoH as my escape from the dull repetitive mind numbing MMO's that are out there. MMO's used to be exciting virtual worlds to interact in with others. Now, most them are just level up as fast as possible to raid the same places over and over again.....boring. Sorry, I didn't mean to start ranting.
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Golden Ace » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:22 am

Thank you for your insight. Wonderful post
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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Consultant » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:59 am

We definitely want to be building Soh for years, adding new things and trying stuff that we do not see out there anywhere. But we plan to keep in close communication with all of you to stay on target.

And of course, we plan to play the game we are creating. How could it be otherwise? We hope this is an adventure that is beginning, and will last a long time.

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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby Major Victory » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:55 am

I have to say, I really enjoyed everyone's post on this topic. Informative, upbeat and fun.

And I still want to fight Nazis! And Nazi supervillains! Captain Nazi! The Hun! Baron Blitzkreig! Agent Axis! Baron Blood! Master Man! Red Skull! And so many more! :lol:

Time Travel arc? Or take that episode of Star Trek TOS where some science guy thought bringing Nazi culture to a planet in trouble would be a good thing and do the same thing for a planet the ship visits? Got to be somebody out in the universe who feels that they are the Master Race and everyone else deserves to be under their bootheels!

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Re: Dont you wish all these small game companies would join forces?

Postby A1fighter » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:38 am

Why would SoH want to? I know that sounds harsh, but as others have said, what have those other 2 "Companies" produced? Due to the varied opinions, they will probably slow SoH down.

Too many cooks in the kitchen, but only one of those cooks can actually cook, or make a dish ready for public consumption.


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