Control Powers

Consultant
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Control Powers

Postby Consultant » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:26 pm

We've just launched a newsletter describing our current thinking about control powers. We'll be interested to hear what people think of the plan. Please feel free to weigh in.

https://www.shipofheroes.com/crowd-cont ... ts-in-soh/

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GladDog
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Re: Control Powers

Postby GladDog » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:43 pm

You are listing these as effects for the existing 4 ATs, and the first five you listed will be in Controller sets when the Controller class is released, correct? Then, as the game matures a bit, the last three effects will be added as higher level powers?

Sounds very intriguing...
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Country Strong
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Country Strong » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:45 pm

Any type of control would be good, but I'd really like to see something with pizazz like earth control or plants, steel manipulation or maybe even a nature type using things like bees, birds ect. I know these suggestions would take more time due to complexity though.

Dying Breath
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Dying Breath » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:21 pm

So far it looks like you've covered most of the basic mechanics. Some thoughts:

1. To me, slow is more of a debuff than a control, especially if it affects health and energy recovery.
2. Confuse: If an enemy is confused, do his allies automatically attack him, or does that happen only after he attacks them?
3. No AoE Confuse?
4. More confuse: does it generate threat?
5. Intangible: the only use I ever heard of for this type of power in CoH was in the STF for the red tower... unsure if it actually worked, since it was far easier just to nuke the tower. Other than that, I think it was more of a griefing tool than a help.


Also, I apparently missed on the first pass, but I didn't see perception as a buffable stat. Will there be stealth and -stealth/+perception effects?

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lunawisp
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Re: Control Powers

Postby lunawisp » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:42 am

Looks pretty good to me, though I'm not too sure about Intangible. Making enemies invulnerable while allowing them to heal doesn't seem that useful to me, especially considering bosses and suchlike will almost certainly be immune anyway. Maybe it'd be better utilised as a panic button affecting only the player who cast it?
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Consultant
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Consultant » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:05 am

These are great thread responses. Thank you all. And we have a few comments as well:

CountryStrong -- your ideas are good ones; applying Earth, plants, steel, or nature would be interesting. But we may start with something easier to animate and easier with FX, like Ice, Psychic...we're not sure yet. But these first five powers set the stage, and would re-occur with multiple FX around them.

GladDog -- you understand correctly, my friend. The reason we show this list is that we are at the stage of coding these powers, but not yet at the stage of animating and deciding FX, although we will be working on that too. So there will be a set of modest FX to go with these five powers when they are secondary effects of attacks from the first four ATs. But also, these five are the powers we plan to employ as bread and butter for the first Controller-Dominator AT. However, we will be adding some things like knockdown or knockback to the set as well.

Dying Breath -- we've long thought that Slow was the stepchild of control powers. Less powerful than Immob which is turn is less powerful than Hold. Adding the debuffs to Slow kind of levels the playing field and allows for alternative styles of play. As for Confuse, AOE may be added, but we're not sure yet. Would that be overpowered? We'd like to test it a bit in gameplay, so we expect to decide that next year.

Lunawisp -- The three powers in blue are "under review." For example, if we allow an emergency power of intangible for a player who is at 2% health, how would that guy ever get killed? Would that be OP? Lead to to much reckless behavior on teams? Again, it's something we need to test. Making an Archvillian intangible for 30 seconds might allow an alternative method of completing a mission. Race in, hit the AV with Intangible, grab the stuff or click the glowie, and race out, running for your life. Would that be fun?

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JestersGhost
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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:29 am

Right. *cracks knuckles* :D

1. Slow. So this is the slow from the debuff list, plus 100% fly slow, -health regen, -energy recovery.
- Why a fixed amount? There's a lot of mileage in being able to have different powers with differing amounts of slow - short duration high mag slow, long duration or AoE lesser slows, etc. Seems odd to ignore a good lever for balancing powers.

2. Immobilize. So 100% slow, 100% fly slow, and 100% teleport reduction.
- TP reduction is the one effect in any of these powers that isn't already in the debuff list. As a suggestion, LoL has an effect called "grounded" which prevents any kind of travel powers from working - blinks, dashes and longer distance movement powers. Maybe make the fly slow from the debuff list a jump height and teleport range reduction? Makes them a bit less situational, and 100% debuff is equivalent to -fly, -jump and -tp.

3. Stun. Immobilize and silence.
- Still not sure why power recharge and silence are different effects. Silence is merely 100% power recharge debuff.

4. Sleep. Stun with no threat and cancelled by damage.
- Yup, unique and fills a hole for sure. Still think it'd be nice to have a variable amount of damage required, for one more balancing lever, but that's pretty minor.

5. Confuse.
- So ignores player generated aggro while the power is in effect, but this seems to suggest that enemies can generate aggro towards each other at any time, it just takes this power to make that happen? That's nice if so. I see a lot of potential with that (eg. gang wars, etc.).

(note I'm ignoring the 6 on the form because it's just a misformatted table - and subtracting one from everything above it).

6. Intangible. A way to make players unable to fight enemies.
- If players can make themselves Intangible too, and Intangible players and enemies can fight, then sure. Otherwise this will just be annoying and a way to troll team-mates. Yes, it has some situational uses, but I don't think they're enough to counter the negatives.

7. Terrify. The annoying power CoH had and then removed 'cos it sucked.
- As above, basically all this does is stop you from playing the game. Yes, it has it's defensive uses, but those are achievable without actively sabotaging your ability to engage in the gameplay.

8. Interrupt. Stop powers currently in animation, channelling or charging up.
- Should be on -power use/silence/sleep as default, rather than a standalone effect. If you mean this effect will be added to other powers once it's coded then yup, cool. Definitely needed, and a massively important use of mez effects in higher skill play.

X. General Questions
- (Almost) Everything in the powers is a combination of debuffs. Why fix the combinations in this way? Again it seems odd to ignore balancing options. If it's coded in such a way that different powers can be tweaked later without affecting others, then cool, but I'm worried if all "Slow" powers just get these effects, and if after six months it's obvious that a cc power is too powerful with the -fly component (or whatever) it can't be changed without recoding the entire power from scratch or changing every other "Slow" power too.
- Why is whether it's ST or AoE or whatever associated with the mez effects? Sure, you might not end up using certain powers in AoE as that might be too powerful, but we're a long way from that sort of balance decision and it might depend on the size of the AoE. Again this kind of decision seems premature.


I have no problems with the current cc effects as a sort of shorthand for now. We're well away from the fine-tuning stage where we might want to think about varying the various debuffs on a mez power individually. I just want to make sure when we get to that point we can.

We're at the stage where we're saying the menu will have curry, chinese and italian food on it. Later, we might want break those up and say vindaloo, korma, pizza, lasagne, etc. Even futher on, you might differentiate even further into pepperoni pizza and a ham and pineapple pizza.

Hopefully the analogy makes sense. Please don't treat these as hard and fast sets that will be the only things mez powers can do - there's a whole wonderful world of ingredients and possible recipes out there, please make sure it's an option to explore them :P


EDIT because several people posted while I was writing this :P

Slow is not as strong as an immob true - but it's still incredibly useful as long as positioning is important. As you add interesting shapes to AoE powers positioning and mobility become a massive part of gameplay. And sometimes slow is better than an immob - the enemies may be too spread out at first, but aggro them with a slow and they'll cluster in without getting to you, ripe for follow up AoEs.

Also, the "weakness" of a slow means the debuff can be more liberally used. A power seems a little underpowered or not as useful? Add a small slow component. Again, it's an excellent low-impact balancing lever that can be added where needed.
[ quantum sufficit / casual-tempest.net / My Combat Mechanics Thread ]

Pyrion
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Pyrion » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:50 am

Confuse AE's have been a part of CoH. They are indeed pretty powerfull, that's why such powers usually had a long recharge time, basically the same like AE holds (you need a long recharge for those as well).

At the start of CoH it was still possible to perma hold mob groups with just one controller. Using haste + recharge enhancements and with no ED in place that was quite common. Of course that was bad for the game. And they changed it.

Seethe
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Seethe » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:05 pm

Looks pretty good to me, though I'm not too sure about Intangible. Making enemies invulnerable while allowing them to heal doesn't seem that useful to me, especially considering bosses and suchlike will almost certainly be immune anyway. Maybe it'd be better utilised as a panic button affecting only the player who cast it?
This is caging. Caging can be useful- especially in a situation where you're having 2 bosses or multiple lieutenants.

Caging was once used pretty widely in pre-I13 PvP. In PvE, it often had limited use outside of soloing because it wasn't effective on AV's due the insanely high status protection.

I'm open to this idea as long as it's actually functional against boss level encounters.

Seethe
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Seethe » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:09 pm


7. Terrify. The annoying power CoH had and then removed 'cos it sucked.
- As above, basically all this does is stop you from playing the game. Yes, it has it's defensive uses, but those are achievable without actively sabotaging your ability to engage in the gameplay.
I always thought Terrify/Fear effects would be better suited as a debuff. Maybe -accuracy + -recharge effect to simulate hesitation due to one shatting himself in fear. :)

Meridian
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Meridian » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:18 pm

When you implement intangibility, please make it a stasis field or something that a Hero couldn’t benefit from (or at least sounds detrimental narratively, not in a playerbase exploitation sense). It makes no narrative/comic sense to have intangibility for enemies but not self.

Again, I'm not arguing for a hero self intangibility... I just don’t want a game where we have inverse Vision, Kitty Pryde, etc and not the actual heroic version. So just implement it cosmetically some other way. Also, if you are a “ghost” you can still move, so it doesn’t make sense anyway.

In game terms, if you DID have intangibility (presuming immobility)...the hero at 2% (in the example) would come back to a bunch of aggro, equally healed, off-cooldown enemies. So it would probably be bad in solo or duo play but perhaps viable (or great) in group play. Although the group would be down 1...depends on the difficulty of the mission and the utility of the missing Archetype to that group/encounter. Support couldn’t heal the player and buffs would be expiring. Is that OP? I don’t know. If the tank disappears...not so much.

Consultant
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Consultant » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:45 pm

You'll all notice the phrase I used in the original post -- "our current thinking."

:) :) :)

In our game development, there's a day where we have ideas written down, but nothing is coded. At some point we have to begin coding. We're there. We also need to start basic developing animations and FX. We're just getting going.

Not only are these ideas not set in stone -- we haven't actually taken any control powers out for a stroll yet. So we can all take a deep breath.

This is a great thread. Lot's of good ideas. And just for the record, we can code any needed changes so we are not forced to have 30% or 60% or zero percent health regeneration reduction with slow. We're just looking at it, and we like the idea of increasing the power of slow, to make it more attractive.

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A1fighter
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Re: Control Powers

Postby A1fighter » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:31 pm

The first five appear to be standard mmo debuffs for lack of a better term. Out of the last three, I would say interrupt. ESO has it, useful tool. Solid, I have no issues with the list personally.

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Coyote
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Coyote » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:18 am

First, I don't see Knockdown listed in the control effects. Is it considered as a secondary effect of other powers rather than a status effect on its own? In CoH, many persistent-knockdown powers such as Ice Slick were better control powers than Slows, and it is also a lot more entertaining to knock down opponents than it is to just slow down their movement

Second, I agree with having Fear be something different rather than causing opponents to run away, especially if there may be aggro-passing effects from one aggroed mob passing through a group of non-aggroed mobs. Maybe a rare effect called Panic can do that, but a Fear/Terrify effect would have more playable effects if it either caused the opponent to shake in fear and be unable to attack except to retaliate, or if it caused a debuff on attack effects (-ToHit, -Damage, -Recharge, maybe -Special on secondary attack effects).

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JestersGhost
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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:20 pm

You'll all notice the phrase I used in the original post -- "our current thinking."
Which is why I'm still here and posting :D If I didn't think my feedback was going to accomplish anything I wouldn't be bothering :P

This is a great thread. Lot's of good ideas. And just for the record, we can code any needed changes so we are not forced to have 30% or 60% or zero percent health regeneration reduction with slow. We're just looking at it, and we like the idea of increasing the power of slow, to make it more attractive.
Awesome sauce. Yup, I like the idea - it does make thematic sense, and it is also nice to make slow feel different. As long as things can be tweaked and changed between powers this is a reasonable starting base.
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