Control Powers

Duane
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Duane » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:32 am

I think Controllers would round out the archtypes.

I just hope it does not delay the release, but this sounds like a really cool issue 1 or 2 (if you count the first release as issue 0 or 1).

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GladDog
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Re: Control Powers

Postby GladDog » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:02 am

I'm pretty sure Controllers will enter the game in Issue 2 (about 6-8 months after release), although if things go REALLY well, maybe Issue 1. Commanders (CoH Masterminds) will enter the game in the following issue, unless Controller pets end up too OP or UP, and require extensive rework, in which case they should be an issue later. I doubt they will need to rework Controller pets that much, but this is a big long string of computer code, and the only was to be really sure you got it right is to release the issue and see what happens.
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SirJeffery
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Re: Control Powers

Postby SirJeffery » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 pm

Right. *cracks knuckles* :D

1. Slow. So this is the slow from the debuff list, plus 100% fly slow, -health regen, -energy recovery.
- Why a fixed amount? There's a lot of mileage in being able to have different powers with differing amounts of slow - short duration high mag slow, long duration or AoE lesser slows, etc. Seems odd to ignore a good lever for balancing powers.

2. Immobilize. So 100% slow, 100% fly slow, and 100% teleport reduction.
- TP reduction is the one effect in any of these powers that isn't already in the debuff list. As a suggestion, LoL has an effect called "grounded" which prevents any kind of travel powers from working - blinks, dashes and longer distance movement powers. Maybe make the fly slow from the debuff list a jump height and teleport range reduction? Makes them a bit less situational, and 100% debuff is equivalent to -fly, -jump and -tp.

3. Stun. Immobilize and silence.
- Still not sure why power recharge and silence are different effects. Silence is merely 100% power recharge debuff.

4. Sleep. Stun with no threat and cancelled by damage.
- Yup, unique and fills a hole for sure. Still think it'd be nice to have a variable amount of damage required, for one more balancing lever, but that's pretty minor.

5. Confuse.
- So ignores player generated aggro while the power is in effect, but this seems to suggest that enemies can generate aggro towards each other at any time, it just takes this power to make that happen? That's nice if so. I see a lot of potential with that (eg. gang wars, etc.).

(note I'm ignoring the 6 on the form because it's just a misformatted table - and subtracting one from everything above it).

6. Intangible. A way to make players unable to fight enemies.
- If players can make themselves Intangible too, and Intangible players and enemies can fight, then sure. Otherwise this will just be annoying and a way to troll team-mates. Yes, it has some situational uses, but I don't think they're enough to counter the negatives.

7. Terrify. The annoying power CoH had and then removed 'cos it sucked.
- As above, basically all this does is stop you from playing the game. Yes, it has it's defensive uses, but those are achievable without actively sabotaging your ability to engage in the gameplay.

8. Interrupt. Stop powers currently in animation, channelling or charging up.
- Should be on -power use/silence/sleep as default, rather than a standalone effect. If you mean this effect will be added to other powers once it's coded then yup, cool. Definitely needed, and a massively important use of mez effects in higher skill play.

X. General Questions
- (Almost) Everything in the powers is a combination of debuffs. Why fix the combinations in this way? Again it seems odd to ignore balancing options. If it's coded in such a way that different powers can be tweaked later without affecting others, then cool, but I'm worried if all "Slow" powers just get these effects, and if after six months it's obvious that a cc power is too powerful with the -fly component (or whatever) it can't be changed without recoding the entire power from scratch or changing every other "Slow" power too.
- Why is whether it's ST or AoE or whatever associated with the mez effects? Sure, you might not end up using certain powers in AoE as that might be too powerful, but we're a long way from that sort of balance decision and it might depend on the size of the AoE. Again this kind of decision seems premature.


I have no problems with the current cc effects as a sort of shorthand for now. We're well away from the fine-tuning stage where we might want to think about varying the various debuffs on a mez power individually. I just want to make sure when we get to that point we can.

We're at the stage where we're saying the menu will have curry, chinese and italian food on it. Later, we might want break those up and say vindaloo, korma, pizza, lasagne, etc. Even futher on, you might differentiate even further into pepperoni pizza and a ham and pineapple pizza.

Hopefully the analogy makes sense. Please don't treat these as hard and fast sets that will be the only things mez powers can do - there's a whole wonderful world of ingredients and possible recipes out there, please make sure it's an option to explore them :P


EDIT because several people posted while I was writing this :P

Slow is not as strong as an immob true - but it's still incredibly useful as long as positioning is important. As you add interesting shapes to AoE powers positioning and mobility become a massive part of gameplay. And sometimes slow is better than an immob - the enemies may be too spread out at first, but aggro them with a slow and they'll cluster in without getting to you, ripe for follow up AoEs.

Also, the "weakness" of a slow means the debuff can be more liberally used. A power seems a little underpowered or not as useful? Add a small slow component. Again, it's an excellent low-impact balancing lever that can be added where needed.
Ummmm ... Yeah. What he said.

I've never been big into the back end of the game but ... I very much agree with the thought that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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SirJeffery
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Re: Control Powers

Postby SirJeffery » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:11 pm

Goooooooood Morning Ship mates!

This topic has been mulling in the back of my mind for awhile now and I wanted to throw a couple more pennies into the pot for whatever it might be worth.

I dabbled with controllers back in the day, and I enjoyed them but never really got behind them. I think my play experience has evolved since then and I will approach them with a different eye of respect than I had in the past. That being said there are two memories that really stand out from the CoH type of controller. I'm sure most of us have seen this or something similar in our travels through the virtual universes.

Early in my CoH career, pre issue 5's Enhancement Diversification, I was on an 8 man team fighting ... I don't know ... Skulz probably. I saw something that would have been suicide in most situations. A tall skinny black hero, with the hugest aphro I had ever seen, wearing a white jump suit with gold piping jumped into a mob of Skulz bigger than I could count and put them all in a gravity hold. Their arms tightly held to their sides, struggling slightly and glaring at her back. She walked out of the crowd, brushing the dust off of her pristine jumpsuit and with a thumb pointing over her shoulders she said, "Go get em boys!" We eagerly waded in and started arresting all the Skulz who where now beginning to break free of their bonds.

Admittedly this was OP, the controller did not have to suffer the Alpha strike and the number of mobs she could hold was impressive. As has been stated earlier in this thread ED was necessary. My point is that ... I have no valid point. I want to do that dammit! LOL I have yet to find a game with a decent controller class.

The other memory I had of an encounter with a controller was the last time I ever engaged in PVP. I entered the new PVP zone that had just opened as Sir Jeffery, my fully realized SS/Fire tank. I wasn't in there more than 5 minutes and suddenly I was held by a gravity controller. Who danced around me like she had something to fear from my writhing body. I was permaheld. Never had a chance. This was after ED. Boy do I want another chance now!

So ... the take away. Controllers are an important part of the game and I'm glad they are getting some deep thought.
Sir Jeffery
SS/Fire Tank
City of Heroes vet starting at issue 2

DztBlk
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Re: Control Powers

Postby DztBlk » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:10 pm

I am excited for the first 5! I have read some comments on aoe confuse. As a controller, I got my fix from holding/locking down mobs. I would LOVE an aoe confuse. I would bump terrify up on the list or at least put it before intangibility. Who uses that?

legacy72
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Re: Control Powers

Postby legacy72 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:54 am

I just joined this forum and was curious about the planned control powers. In my opinion, illusion controllers had control types 2 thru 6, at least. My favorite character on CoH I created was a mystery man type hero illusion controller. They could turn invisible and when they attacked it was a critical hit if they were not discovered. But as the term "illusion" suggestions, this controller could blind or fear enemies. He had temporary pets he could summon made from illusion, too. And several of the illusion controllers's powers were area effect for mass crowd control. DCUO has the mental power set which lets you turn invisible, but no pets. To really get close to an illusion controller on DCUO, you'd need a combo of sorcery and mental aspects.

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Golden Ace
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Golden Ace » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:21 pm

Welcome to the ship Legacy72. glad you found us.

No guarantees on Controllers at release, although it is looking promising. You won't see that choice pop up until the dev team is confident they can finish the AT with at least two primary powersets.

Controllers - Final form is up in the air - could be like Controllers, or maybe like Dominators, or maybe a blend of the two.

As for what their powers will be I’m fairly certain that one will be Ice, but no official word yet.

Of course more powersets will be added as the game moves along.
♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♫

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GladDog
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Re: Control Powers

Postby GladDog » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:40 pm

I wanted to add;

Even if Controllers are in the game at release, it is unlikely thjey will release with any pets. Those probably won't be in the game - assuming Controllers get pets at all - until Commanders (Masterminds in CoH)_ are in the game.
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Phantom Mouse
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Phantom Mouse » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:55 pm

When I tried a Force Field defender, I took the Intangible power, thinking I could use it as a way to break up aggro and thus help the team. The only time I actually used the power, I got no end of flak for taking it, and the team was quite upset that they "had to wait for the mob to become targetable".

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Golden Ace
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Golden Ace » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:42 pm

When I tried a Force Field defender, I took the Intangible power, thinking I could use it as a way to break up aggro and thus help the team. The only time I actually used the power, I got no end of flak for taking it, and the team was quite upset that they "had to wait for the mob to become targetable".
it was a good power if your team couldn't take on that extra aggro from a second or third group. alas some people hated those little times when nothing was available to attack, or didn't understand why something was not target-able
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JestersGhost
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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:53 am

It would have been better if intangible mobs could be attacked by intangible players, and vice-versa. It still works to break up aggro from adds, but you at least have the /option/ to do attack them if you want. Would also have been a great anti-frustration feature when fighting circus bosses...
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Blue Yankee
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Blue Yankee » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:26 pm

Here are my opinions:

slow: slow should not turn off flight, but it should slow down flight even if stationary. slow should increase activation time
powers use: players should never lose their super abilities. If I wanted to play as a character that cannot throw a fireball, I will skip logging in and just be myself. I play superhero games to have abilities I cannot obtain in reality.

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Avatar PDM
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:07 am

We've just launched a newsletter describing our current thinking about control powers. We'll be interested to hear what people think of the plan. Please feel free to weigh in.

https://www.shipofheroes.com/crowd-cont ... ts-in-soh/
I just wanted to mention - intangible on first thought would make more sense (in my eyes) if you use it on a friend :)

ok sorry - haven´t read your first response - now I see the light :)
but still - though I understand your concern I still believe it could be nice having your own character or a friend turn intangible (and therefore also invisible ;) ) for stealth reasons - to avoid what you mentioned - that could be only usable on a friend with full health or max down to 50 % maybe?
I definitely would love working with intagibility (like mentioned before - Kitty Pride, Vision as examples :) )
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indigowulf
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Re: Control Powers

Postby indigowulf » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:13 pm

I know this is late but.. we need some sort of knock back and knock down. I know knock back was annoying but if you incorporate environmental hazards, it could be super useful-- also very useful with people who know how to work together- knock back the bad guys to help group them for a nova, for example. Knock down is a little less useful (and less annoying when paired with someone who doesn't play well with others lol) but in both cases, whomever was knocked down/back has to "take a moment to stand" which can interrupt their powering up of a big move for example.

I'd love to see environment play a role in fighting. As mentioned above, things you can knock mobs into, maybe the environment itself causing knock down (like the exposed wires in the latest video all over the floor for you to trip over lmao) Not just controllers either, though they are most obvious. A tank could land a nice haymaker and slap a bad guy into a generator, where he takes electric damage and a momentary stun. A blaster could drop an ice slick and make bad guys skid right over a ledge, forcing them to come back up the catwalk to rejoin the fight, turning the odds in favor of the heroes, and so much more.
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:00 am

I know this is late but.. we need some sort of knock back and knock down. I know knock back was annoying but if you incorporate environmental hazards, it could be super useful-- also very useful with people who know how to work together- knock back the bad guys to help group them for a nova, for example. Knock down is a little less useful (and less annoying when paired with someone who doesn't play well with others lol) but in both cases, whomever was knocked down/back has to "take a moment to stand" which can interrupt their powering up of a big move for example.

I'd love to see environment play a role in fighting. As mentioned above, things you can knock mobs into, maybe the environment itself causing knock down (like the exposed wires in the latest video all over the floor for you to trip over lmao) Not just controllers either, though they are most obvious. A tank could land a nice haymaker and slap a bad guy into a generator, where he takes electric damage and a momentary stun. A blaster could drop an ice slick and make bad guys skid right over a ledge, forcing them to come back up the catwalk to rejoin the fight, turning the odds in favor of the heroes, and so much more.
yep knockback should be around and if only for the cases when one playes solo and wants to breath better between all those sweaty ugly looking brutes ;)
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM


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