What didn't you like in CoH?

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Kelvinkole
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What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Kelvinkole » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:10 pm

There's lots of posts and discussions around here honoring the things people liked and miss about CoH, but what things didn't you like? What lessons learned should the SoH dev team apply from what CoH did wrong?

For me, I always longed for some quality end game content. In a game where you're not grinding for or chasing new gear, i think you need to have a living story and plenty of raid content (which I know won't be there at SoH launch). I never really got the feeling in CoH that the world was changing, even with new issue releases.
Last edited by Kelvinkole on Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Itlandm
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Itlandm » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:51 pm

I actually dropped the endgame content in CoH because it was all raid oriented and completely dominated by people who had many hours a day to earn Incarnate shards and threads, not to mention drill their raid tactics to perfection. I participated in the first Incarnate trials for the first weeks, but then the others who played were just on a higher level than me both in Incarnate status and skill. As a middle-aged working man, I could not hope to keep up. I still had much fun in the game after that and would almost certainly still be playing it if it had not been shut down, but a lot of the endgame content was irrelevant to me, because I don't really have that kind of time and energy to give.

Students have lots of time but not so much money. Workers have more money but not so much time. Maybe that is why almost every surviving MMORPG is pay to win in one form or another. (I count the "must buy expansion packs to advance" approach of World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online as pay to win as well. Your usage of the phrase may vary.)

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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Mainsil » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:46 am

TLDR They started stuff and didn't finish it, had only one raid, their mobs were stupid, and they had some vague descriptions.
  • They got everyone hyped about base to base PvP and then just stopped developing it leaving it half finished.
  • The three zones of the shadow shard were supposed to be the end-game zones. But, despite hinting that more was to come, they abandoned it, leaving it feeling unfinished. Ultimately, there just wasn't any reason to go to the trouble of getting there.
  • Overly simplistic mob pathing made herding fun, but led to XP farms where people would just stand around leveling while the tank or scrapper did the herding and killing.
  • Having one and only one raid (Hamidon) for years, and that raid was highly specialized, required 50 people, and was really not much fun. Early on loot distribution sucked too.
  • Intentionally vague power descriptions in manual and web site (no doubt so they wouldn't have to be changed as they got tweaked). Particularly galling was that, early on, mind control's mass confusion was essentially a suicide button since it would agro everything not confused and this was not clear from the description. And yes, I'm still mad. :lol:

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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Avatar PDM » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:15 am

I got to admit it is a kind of daring but actually interesting question here!

Leaving aside all the good emotions and memories which a lot of us combine with CoH that definitely is a valid and necessary question which I have to admit should have been asked earlier because as mentioned here before those things done wrong should definitely be better this time and should be avoided while there is still time.

So, what was it I did not like about CoH? Actually it is more what I did miss than what I did not like I guess but I will mention it anyway:

I did not like that as I feel it they did not work enough with the base concept: I felt it was to rudimentary without real optical variations in question of walls, doors, windows and such but MOST IMPORTANTLY
it did was a missed opportunity in question of giving players the opportunity to build just for its fun without having to wait ages or being part of a huge group.
What I mean is basically, that when you are just a small SG you had to wait and wait until you had enough "money" and could really work with the base creator.

I did not like, that they never made it possible to use the epic concept of Kheldians more freely to create individual epic characters

I missed a possibility to actually take part in a Newspaper/News concept which is part of a thing I missed in a bigger story around the city (more or less history)

I missed something like a library which would have been usable to read into the world
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Golden Ace » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:27 am

Over nerfing, Quick fixes, and reducing achievements.

CoH Had a habit of discovering that a power or power set was broken by being overpowered. Then reducing it completely so the power or power set was next to useless. They would do this on the spur of the moment without proper testing. Leaving the power next useless then they would slowly bring it back up.

Toggle drops in pvp, fear in Fire patch, ED, etc..

Or in the case of the ice secondary for tanks the pinnacle power - the last one in the set - Frozen Aura actually did no damage for years and years.

Many of it was the Devs not listening to the community or only listening to part of the community and then not explaining what they intended or needed to do. in some cases I think they outright lied. I don’t care what anyone says ED was a Nerf and the way they handled it’s implementation was criminal.

Also please don’t compare the game to a game boy…
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Kelvinkole » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:02 am

Students have lots of time but not so much money. Workers have more money but not so much time. Maybe that is why almost every surviving MMORPG is pay to win in one form or another. (I count the "must buy expansion packs to advance" approach of World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online as pay to win as well. Your usage of the phrase may vary.)
I'll have a new appreciation of this when SoH launches. As a student in the days of CoH, I had plenty of time to play but my subscription lapsed a couple of times each year. Now, as an "adult" with a house, wife, and kid, my playing time will be a lot more casual. I'm hoping the sidekick system deployed in SoH will have some real utility for casual players and some advantages for the hardcore players that are mentoring us, to encourage use of the system.
TLDR They started stuff and didn't finish it, had only one raid, their mobs were stupid, and they had some vague descriptions.
  • They got everyone hyped about base to base PvP and then just stopped developing it leaving it half finished.
This one always bothered me too. I loved the concept of base raid, the attack and defend and all of the creativity that could go into base building. It could have been a very interesting combination of MMORTS meets MMORPG, but never matured into its potential. I can appreciate how gargantuan of an undertaking this was though and knowing what I know about NCSoft now, I was foolish to get my hopes up back then.
I missed a possibility to actually take part in a Newspaper/News concept which is part of a thing I missed in a bigger story around the city (more or less history)

I missed something like a library which would have been usable to read into the world

These are interesting ideas. I didn't often get the feeling that the world was changing, even when it did, or that anything was going on around me; I was just a hero going into the same doors, clicking the same glowies, and waiting for the same mobs to respawn. If not for the community, character customization, and the fun and speed of combat I would not have stuck around as long. Your ideas add some depth to the setting that I do think was missing.
Many of it was the Devs not listening to the community or only listening to part of the community and then not explaining what they intended or needed to do. in some cases I think they outright lied. I don’t care what anyone says ED was a Nerf and the way they handled it’s implementation was criminal.
I joined when CoV launched, and with it ED. So I never knew the world before ED. The concept of diminishing returns always made sense to me though, but I can't comment as to how well it was implemented or how much it affected certain builds/powers.

I definitely agree on the issues with balancing though. It did seem that the approach was to nerf things into oblivion and then slowly buff them back up to something useful. I saw plenty of that.

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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Blaze Rocker » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:09 pm

Golden Ace
Over nerfing, Quick fixes, and reducing achievements.

CoH Had a habit of discovering that a power or power set was broken by being overpowered. Then reducing it completely so the power or power set was next to useless. They would do this on the spur of the moment without proper testing. Leaving the power next useless then they would slowly bring it back up.

Toggle drops in pvp, fear in Fire patch, ED, etc..

Or in the case of the ice secondary for tanks the pinnacle power - the last one in the set - Frozen Aura actually did no damage for years and years.

Many of it was the Devs not listening to the community or only listening to part of the community and then not explaining what they intended or needed to do. in some cases I think they outright lied. I don’t care what anyone says ED was a Nerf and the way they handled it’s implementation was criminal.

Also please don’t compare the game to a game boy…
I'm with Ace here.

There was way too much nerfing and adjusting in the game's lifespan and it felt like the devs realized that they built the game wrong from the beginning and were struggling to fix things over the years. It's always better to have things underpowered or undervalued early on because you can always notch them up slowly to get them where you like them. Bumping down the values of established powers and abilities is always going to cause a lot of headaches and people are going to remember it for a long, long time.

So start low and work your way up. Understand what went wrong the first time with CoH and get as many things right the first time around with SoH. If it takes more time we'll understand and support the devs and their efforts to get things right.
Good things come to those who wait. ;)
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Consultant » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:37 am

This is one of the most daunting threads I've ever read. :)

We'll do our best to get it all right, or close to it, at the start, but few things made by the hand of man are perfect from the start. One of the thirngs that I always say on this topic is that we will definitely try to have a "no surprises" policy as much as we can on nerfs.

That being said, I'll add a couple of my observations on COH as well.

Several of the city zones were nearly empty all of the time. That made it less fun to play in them, at least for me. In the shoes of the COH devs, I would have tried to add more content to those zones.

I'm not sure why it was, but I often saw groups of strangers standing around points where TFs formed up, and I always wondered (as I was forming one) why no one else seemed to get the messsage and announce a TF. People knew how to play them...maybe there needed to be some incentive to get people to initiate TFs? Something as small as a badge might have done it...

Post-nerf restoration. I get it that the devs decided some powersets were OP, and nerfed them. But honestly, players don't stop playing previously OP powersets unless the nerf is way too powerful. Nerfing happened, but I always wondered why the devs did not quickly discover that they had gone too far and restore some of the previous awesomeness to some of those powersets.

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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby GladDog » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:18 am

When Cryptic had the helm of CoH, they would get laser focused on something and ignore everything else until they were shamed into action. When they did act, it was always, and I mean always, way too much and the game suffered for it.

A couple of examples; Fire tanks were good, but had a few problems. Probably making Taunt an AoE fixed the worse ones. Instead they fixed EVERYTHING that people were complaining about, except for the one thing they needed to fix - making temperature protection a worthwhile power. Instead, they made status resistance part of their toggle defenses; shortened the recycle on Healing Flames; decreased the frequency and duration of Burn's attacks and lowered the accuracy, but increased the damage; lowered the endurance cost of Fire Shield and Plasma Armor; Increased the accuracy and endurance recovery of Consume; Reduced the recycle of Fiery Embrace; and so on.

The bottom line was that they fixed everything wrong with Fire Tanks. All of us veteran Fire Tanks saw the writing on the wall. They killed off Fire Tanks, they just had not died yet. Fire Tanks were a trade off. For the cost of a very demanding play style, you inflicted an amazing amount of damage, easily Scrapper level. With the changes the play style was easy. Now, all you saw was Fire Tanks. They were like gods on the battle field, burning down dozens upon dozens of bad guys in a frightening matter while the player was off making a sandwich.

But this was a typical Cryptic reaction. They were laser focused on fleshing out the Counsel, and anything else was a nuisance that needed to go away. So they fixed all of it. But us veteran Fire Tanks saw the countdown. and sure enough, in Issue 5 Fire Tanks were made useless. The level of fear in Burn meant that even AVs would not stand in a Burn patch, even if three tanks were shoulder to shoulder taunting him - I checked on this. Without Burn, there really was no reason to play a Fire Tank. Fire Brutes (because of Fury), and when they were introduced Fire Scrappers, were worthwhile, but Tanks that used the Fire Primary were hardly ever seen on the battlefield.

When Paragon took over, they took some measures to make Fire Tanks viable, including making Temperature Protection useful. The changes made them a better tank, although I still preferred the first version. But it was way too late for that play styie to be brought back.

GDN was another of their Knee Jerk reactions to tanker defenses. Hardly anything happened to Fire Tanks in the GDN, because quite frankly, they were utterly ruined in the prior issue. Cryptic fixed EVERY complaint about tanks, instead of analyzing the situation and working out the best fix. Paragon spent the rest of the game fixing tanks, and they had almost completed this work when the game closed. The worse thing? They should have delayed the GDN until after ED so that tanks weren't gutted so badly by ED.

So, almost everything bad about the game adjustments could be blamed on Cryptic, and almost everything good about game adjustments could be lauded to Paragon.
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Kelvinkole » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:24 am

This is one of the most daunting threads I've ever read. :)

We'll do our best to get it all right, or close to it, at the start, but few things made by the hand of man are perfect from the start. One of the thirngs that I always say on this topic is that we will definitely try to have a "no surprises" policy as much as we can on nerfs.
I, and I'm sure others, certainly understand that things are never perfect; The community doesn't expect perfection as much as they expect progress. I think as long as people get a sense that the development team is actively engaging with and listening to them, and then working on the things that are most important to them, then you'll have a happy and loyal customer base. So far as I can tell, you're already do that better than most!
That being said, I'll add a couple of my observations on COH as well.

Several of the city zones were nearly empty all of the time. That made it less fun to play in them, at least for me. In the shoes of the COH devs, I would have tried to add more content to those zones.
This is an excellent point that I would not have thought of, but I can feel the emptiness now as I reflect back on it.
Post-nerf restoration. I get it that the devs decided some powersets were OP, and nerfed them. But honestly, players don't stop playing previously OP powersets unless the nerf is way too powerful. Nerfing happened, but I always wondered why the devs did not quickly discover that they had gone too far and restore some of the previous awesomeness to some of those powersets.
Very glad you understand this! Thanks for your responses.

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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby olepi » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:32 am

"I was just a hero going into the same doors, clicking the same glowies, and waiting for the same mobs to respawn. If not for the community, character customization, and the fun and speed of combat I would not have stuck around as long. "

This was my feeling too. As a casual game where you could play for a while and have a blast, it was great. But it quickly got repetitive if you tried to play for long periods. Soon you could recognize, "oh, this is warehouse #13, I remember this".

As an altoholic, it was fun to create all kinds of characters and play them. As a RPG game with interesting background and stories, and varied activities, it was shallow.
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Odee » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:22 pm

Other than CoX having the plug being unfairly pulled? I guess I have to say the character hands, or mitten hands. Throughout the games life, that was the only thing that annoyed me about CoH, and the many Issues I played over the years. :oops:
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Von » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:41 pm

The only thing I can actually remember was from around when it first started up. It was my first MMO so it took me a while to get used to things. Once I figured out what I was doing...that's then the KS (kill steal) started. I would be fighting higher lvl mobs (relatively) and low lvl players would just get the killing blow and steal the experience. It was eventually fixed, but frustrating at the start.
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Cheesy » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:28 am

In the early days, when the mobs died the ragdoll physics where hilarious. It was a shame when those were tided up!

The Hollows was a terrifying experience at such a low level. Some of the low level awe was removed when the zone became easier to navigate. I remember the tears of joy at achieving the gargantuan feat of getting to the mission door!!!
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Re: What didn't you like in CoH?

Postby Golden Ace » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:43 am

I hated when they made the hollows easier. It took all the joy out of getting to the missions.
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