Defender secondaries

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Defender secondaries

Postby gemini » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:35 am

I had a thought about defender secondaries while chatting in the discord and wanted to bring this up here;

When controllers (eventually) debut the general idea is that they'll have defender secondaries (dominators were control/damage right?) - what do people think about giving defenders the option to pick up a controller secondary?

I remember one of my alts was a defender and i treated her secondary sets as just basically 'buttons to solo or kill time with' - they had very little actual use in team dynamics (except occasionally I would pop a Nova right after a Fulcrum shift).

Some defenders certainly DID build for good damage, but I was not interested in that side of it and always felt like the secondary set was wasted to me.


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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby Odee » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:50 am

IMHO&E, Defenders, should always have the ability, however limited, to dish out power in defense of themselves, and others. Why hamstring a player class, with no attack ability to be able to solo with, regardless how difficult, or in my thinking, challenging soloing may be?
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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby gemini » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:22 am

well, maybe an alternate archetype than the 'defender' with defender primary but control secondary is what I was thinking of (kind of like the way Dominators were controllers with a different secondary in COH)

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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby Consultant » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

We want every character to be able to solo, and that does include being able to fight. Somehow.

This is an interesting discussion. Certainly in COH a classic controller had very little direct damage dealing power. We've adjusted that, giving more offensive power to every character. Maybe not awesome damage dealing power, but some.

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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby Coyote » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:36 pm

By the end of CoH, almost all Controllers could actually do decent single-target damage, and thus solo. Mind Controllers were a bit lower than usual, but Confuse helped. It was AoE damage where they were lacking, but that is more of a teaming role.

As long as the "Control" powersets include built-in damage like the CoH Control sets did, it should be possible to solo reasonably well with them. If pets are not included, then probably the damage would be raised a bit. Of course, they could also go with a Dominator-style build, where one set is for control (and thus does little damage) but they get a 2nd set for damage dealing... in this case, letting Defenders replace their Attack set with a Control set would make them very difficult to solo.

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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby Pyrion » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 am

The single target roots and hold of every controller primary had decent damage. Added to that was the fact that control powers did DOUBLE DAMAGE on controlled targets. So the first hold did let's say 10 damage, the second one and all of the following did 20. That way a controller could solo pretty well. Where the controller was lacking (before pets) was area damage. There was some (area roots usually had a bit of damage) but it wasn't enough to effectively kill groups. Of course with pets all that changed and some controllers (fire controller, illusion controller) actually had very high damage outputs.

I would very much like to see the same or a similar approach from SoH. I really wouldn't like it if my controller in order to deal damage would need to fire a pistol. That would be pretty bad for roleplay reasons alone. My gravity controller wants to defeat foes by crushing them into the earth and not just holding them and then shooting them. I hope you see where i am coming from.

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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby gemini » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:45 am

Well, personally I never played my Defender outside of group content, and like I said I picked damage powers only when I absolutely was forced and I (with the exception of Nova) didn't slot them either so for me it was a conscious choice to completely gimp my soloing abilities.

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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby Kelvinkole » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:08 am

I can't even count how many hours I spent in Fire/Kin controller farms. This was obviously a very specific combo for immense, sustainable, AoE damage and speed but demonstrates the potential of being able to pair crowd control with self/team support. I'd be tickled to play those power sets in reverse, with Defender strength buffs, but it might be too much power for one man/woman.

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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby Avatar PDM » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:40 am

Of course it is understandable and I think also out of question, that any character should be able to defend himself at least rudimentarily but the nature of our class system as we had it in CoH and as I understand it here too is still seperating the classes between more offensive types (blaster, scrapper) and more defensive types (defender, controller) with the propable exception of a tank (which I currently am not really sure how to categorize). What I read out if his question is, if one could max those class categorisation as far as it is possible while giving with the Dominator example an idea, that this kind of exotic thought actually has been used already.

By the way, I can relate to Geminis question here because I for my part also used my Defender mainly as a team support character and could did only on rare occassions attack myself (for that I basically used one or two attacks, which I maxed via Enhancements). I did in times also fight alone with my Defender but it never really felt right, and eventually I ended up switching Characters when I noticed I had to play alone.

Still, though this flaw of not being able to slice through the enemy ranks was there I never was unhappy about it. It was just how I pictured that Character and I wouldn´t have wanted her otherwise. I had my pride in having a Defender which had everything possible to be the perfect Support Character which gave and could give everything for the team.
And therefore I can see why Gemini is asking that question.

So, as I understand it, the question is not about taking away any offensive capability of a character but instead about the possiblity to use the creation class tools really free. And seriously, I also played Controllers and though it took me a while to get used to it. Also the Controller Powers had their way of dealing damage. You just had to be more creative about it and so I also would be for it.

I mean, if somebody would like to have the ultimate support character and is willing to reduce his offensive capability to a minimum, then why not. That person will have to deal with other players (and will propably need to stay away from PvP which for a Supporter is definitely something one can live with) and either will be accepted with that decision or has to correct it, I don´t see why keeping him/her from trying it.
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Re: Defender secondaries

Postby GladDog » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:25 am

A proposal from quite a while ago was to allow Controllers to choose a buff or damage secondary. Tie this in with the ability to change powersets via advanced respecs, and you have the solution!

So with this solution, a player could choose a CoV Dominator and then change to a CoH Controller once they have leveled up. Or, they could stay as a Dominator. This is a very important consideration since there is no guarantee that Controllers will get persistent pets. Or if they do get persistent pets, they may not be in the game for 6 months after release, or maybe longer.


The some what modified respec idea I had (modified since I first proposed it about 2 years ago)

You use tokens for respecs. These are rare random drops, or choosable at the completion of a TF or mission arc.

1 token lets you respec your slots and augments, but your powers (including the order you picked them) and powersets are the same.

2 tokens does a CoH style respec, rechoosing powers and slots, and resetting your augments.

4 tokens lets you rechoose your secondary powerset and do a full two token respec.

5 tokens lets you rechoose your primary powerset and do a full two token respec.

7 tokens lets you rechoose your primay and secondary powersets and do a full two token respec.

10 tokens lets you choose a new AT, rechoose both powersets and do a full two token respec.

Keep in mind that changing your AT is probably going to make a lot of your augments useless. If you are a Devastator and want to change to a Tank, you probably won't have room to reslot all of your ranged damage augments.

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