Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

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olepi
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Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby olepi » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:44 pm

Remember in CoH where Aim and Buildup were almost mandatory? And this led to cookie-cutter builds that caused Cryptic to implement Enhancement Diversification?

I quit my first toon over that, rather than respec.

Anyway, is SoH going to have the same kind of setup? Where a couple of powers are basically mandatory?
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GladDog
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby GladDog » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:29 pm

CoH did not know they were 'virtually mandatory' until the game went live. Same with Stamina and Hasten.

Things that Consultant has said...

There will be no Enhancement Diversification.

Builds will require more thought than they did in CoH. This easy build philosophy was why the two powers you named became almost mandatory.

But even at that, We won't all see the nuances of play until the game goes live. There may be other powers that become virtually mandatory.' A good testing phase will be the thing that makes or breaks a lot of the gameplay.
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Jordan Yen
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Jordan Yen » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:03 pm

For what it's worth, I really LIKED ED. I felt like, before ED, it wasn't realistic to choose builds outside of a certain cookie-cutter format. That and damage and accuracy enhancements were hard to find and everything else was dirt cheap. ED made it useful to be more creative and maybe even not 6-slot all your powers (giving, again, more options).
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Golden Ace » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:52 pm

You could have done that without ED.
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Red5
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Red5 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Remember in CoH where Aim and Buildup were almost mandatory? And this led to cookie-cutter builds that caused Cryptic to implement Enhancement Diversification?...
Dunno why folks keep saying certain powers were forced or mandatory but maybe the answer lays in my next bit...

Cookie cutter happens almost every game. Usually it is the most perceived fun and/or most optimal to perform a function. Personally I see nothing wrong with cookie cutter builds, nor I am I sure why that term is often said like a pariah definition. Me if I don't want to play that build...I don't.

As to ED...yeah I would it say it sucked...mostly because a large group of players I knew, left the game because of it.

That said, imho ED wasn't about powers themselves but as the name implies/states more about enhancements. Dunno how they didn't have the foresight to see a power could/would be boosted 200% in effect..would eventually lead to mobs being demi-gods at the late game to pose a challenge. ((I later got to see how this was not a good thing with another game were mobs were nothing but mobile huge health pools and resistant...making combat long and dull)).

At the time, as one said famously.... 'The game is still fun but just not as much.'

You could have done that without ED.
Agreed!
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Red5 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:24 pm

Remember in CoH where Aim and Buildup were almost mandatory?....
Players naturally gravitate to paths of optimal effect. I don't deny players favored builds that had target drone, or aim...because they could then hit targets and do optimal damage via enhancement slotting.

and yeah by same logic they grab more energy, and hasten, etc.

But I firmly stand by....these things are not mandatory nor forced....they are simply choices made by player(s). As there was a choice to take there was a choice not to take.
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby brawlizard » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:06 am

Sometimes the difference between optimal and sub-optimal are so drastic that you just can't play well without optimization.
i.e. you feel like you are being carried by the group, or the group just flat out rejects your character.
i.e. you can solo vs you can't.

That should never be the case imo

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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby GladDog » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:48 pm

Lots to discuss in this thread. Powers that are almost mandatory, ED, and Augments.

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POWERS THAT ARE ALMOST MANDATORY – Even in CoH Stamina was not a need. I would not have believed it until I saw a Fire Tank herding Werewolves that did not have Stamina. He had Consume slotted up so it was ready about every 12 seconds. By slotting his defenses to reduce endurance cost, he was able to do an amazing job. Aim & Buildup were also not needed. They were very helpful for an alpha strike, but not mandatory. As long as you had your endurance use under control, there was no reason that you HAD to take them.

That said, for a lot of playstyles, probably 80+% of the player base, Stamina, Buildup and Aim made their play a lot more fun for them. I was amongst that group. So for me, these were needed.

IMO there was a method to remove Stamina other than making it inherent from the game, which went thusly; At level 1 you got Stamina, which gave a 1% boost to endurance recovery. At level 2 that boost was increased to 2%. At level 3 you got 3%, at level 4, 4%, and so on. At the level cap you got 50%, which is about how much endurance recovery you got with Stamina and 3 level 50 IOs. This way the boost was gradual, and you did not get the full benefit until you hit the level cap. I always felt that a gradual improvement would be a better way to go, since you had to learn proper endurance management, a great skill to have in long fights.

IMO they should not have added Aim. Buildup was adequate, although they could have better balanced accuracy and damage, maybe 25% accuracy and 75% damage. Instead of Aim, they should have had every offensive powerset get a unique boost based on their theme. Something like Rage for Super Strength, Fiery Embrace for Fiery Melee, and so on. Each one could be very unique, which would make them more interesting to have rather than being mandatory DPS boosters.

The bottom line is that a well thought out and tested game will reveal powers like Aim, Buildup and Stamina that may need adjusting or at least be treated differently so they don’t end up in virtually every build.

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ENHANCEMENT DIVERSIFICATION was a need for the game, but it was handled in a horrifying manner AFTER they did the global defense nerf. The defensive adjustments should have been AFTER ED. The reason so many people left the game is that all the huge changes changed their game far more than they were ready to accept. Also, why was ED done on a sliding scale? They made the job far harder than it needed to be. On the forums we suggested that they make the ED cap a hard cap based on 4 even level SOs. This would still make for some enhancement diversification, and when they were introduced, would have made IO sets so much more worth it. Also, they should have made HOs like they were initially, with a 50% greater benefit than an even level SO.

The big burn about ED was that it and the GDN were done in the name of PvP. Blasters could not kill tanks, and they whined and whined and whined! Why they ruined the game for the under 10% of the players that were regular PvPers is beyond me. I was a regular PvPer and I did not see how those changes benefited the PvP aspect of the game. In fact, once ED and GDN were in the game, the PvP arenas vaporized. There was never anyone to queue up against. Even the PvP zones were empty except a few die-hards and a few badge hunters.

The bottom line here was that ED was too big of a change and ruined the game for way too many people. A more conservative approach to the changes would have had an entirely different outcome. It took Paragon nearly a year to get their player base up to where it was, even with the introduction of City of Villains. And Paragon studios spent the next several years trying to repair all of the damage Jack Emmert did to the game. Once they were done, somewhere around Issue 12, CoH was an amazing game, the game we all remember.

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AUGMENTS – This is going to be the enhancement system that SoH will be using. This is the system the dev team will really want to hear input on once it is in the game. It will be different from the CoH enhancement system, since this was the heart and soul of the CoH game. Because of legalities, this is one area that SoH will need to have some differentiation from CoH. So gang, don’t yell if the system is not exactly like City of Heroes. Because this will likely be the area most closely watched by NCsoft.

The bottom line here is that Augments will be the Enhancement system for SoH, and it will be different from CoH.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And one more note about builds. There were no optimal builds in CoH. The best build was the one that suited your gameplay the best. The way the game was made a team being a team was almost always an unstoppable force.
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olepi
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby olepi » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:03 pm

Excellent post, GladDog!

I guess the fundamental question is about what kind of characters can you have, and what kinds of roles they can play.

Do you want a guy with a big spear and a guy with a big shield? Or do you want two guys with small spears and small shields?

If you go the first route, then characters will be wildly uneven. Some will be very good at offense, and others very good at defense. Team them up for the optimum team.

If you go the second route, each character can do everything, and therefore doesn't really need to team up so much. This also leads to all characters having roughly the same abilities so they are equal.

I'm hoping that SoH allows either kind of approach, while also avoiding certain powers that "have" to be used to get the maximum effects.
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Muppet » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Agreed there were “required powers , but if you weren’t running health and stamina with the endurance procs and hasten you were probably building a pretty ineffective build.

I agree every game will have necessary powers if you want to be top tier, so it all came down to the recipe / set bonuses that made 2 toons built identical powers work very differently. Spec for damage vs survivabilty and recharge of powers so forth.

All I care about is that Augmentations or whatever SoH rolls out allows us to do that same thing. Roll the same toon with same powers but through enhancing whatever that looks like benefit the build in a very different way so that we don’t all end of playing the same character like WOW. More customization the better.

I don’t know what level of change has to take place, I liked consultant saying we would have less slots so that we couldn’t 6 slot as many powers so everything becomes much more “strategic” but I loved the recipe system cause the level of customization from set bonuses as previously stated, it wasn’t always smart to 6 slot a power, or maybe it was better to use 3 from one set and 3 recipes from another set cause the 3 and 3 bonuses were better for the build you wanted. Or the option to even use lower level recipes that max capped at 35 was better set bonuses for toon than a 50 recipe cause the set bonus or proc

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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Red5 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:56 pm

Agreed there were “required powers , but if you weren’t running health and stamina with the endurance procs and hasten you were probably building a pretty ineffective build. ...
Irony?

lol back when one could achieve upwards 200% increased effect such as damage...one had to hit targets half as much = less use of energy = less of a need to have stamina and endurance procs...and maybe even hasten.



-----------------------------------------

Still even that said I had many a builds that didn't follow the "must have" powers post ED, and yeah I met a lot of snobs who didn't want me on their team as those builds were deemed unworthy... BUT those characters were always fun to play and that was (more) important to me.

TBH a group of would be gimps could do most any in that game...maybe just not as fast. Those beholden'ed to speed at the price of fun...clearly were playing a different game than I was.
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Avatar PDM
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Avatar PDM » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 am

Just generally I want to add two thoughts - as propably noticed by now I am a person who is always for maximum diversity and creativity and therefore welcomes it, when players have a choice (makes it harder for Devs I know ;) ) and as long as nothing is really needed to play fluently I don´t see, why anyone should really care if it is there or not (I wouldn´t quit a game because it gives me to much options to optimize my character ;) ).
Second thought just for the fun of it ;) We play superheroes! And one of the things that make those heroes in the comics super is, that they are above regular criminals and even regular villains - just think about Wolverine shlashing through hordes of the hand - or Batman jumping down a rooftop to mess up a street gang or Cap throwing around his shield to knock out a dozen soldiers (you get the picture), who wouldn´t have his/her character in such a cool scenario?
Of course there has to be a challenge - but I think there also should be the chance to play Godlike and feel like it in some scenarios or cases
- Just something to think about ;)
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Golden Ace
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Golden Ace » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:43 am

Pretty much with what avatar said. Common foot soldiers should offer you no problem whatsoever and you should be able to take on bunches of them. Lieutenants bosses and archvillains however are a different story. They should offer you a real challenge. Batman versus Bane etc.
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Red5
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Red5 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:05 pm

...
- Just something to think about ;)
I forget his name/handle but in CoH there was a guy who only picked only power pool abilities...and yes even some of them were off limits.

He wanted to see how far in the game he could progress with just basic punch and kick powers (to include taser, etc.)

We about $h!7 ourselves when we saw how far he made it. Last I saw he was near level cap.

So when people say powers are mandatory... I shake my head and sigh a lil.

Me.... I wanted to play Silver Surfer lol and wield the power of the cosmos when I started, but was happy with my Energy Blaster that flew and hovered as fast as most folks ran. Then ED happened and he was still fun...just not as much lol.

Anyways just meaning to say "FUN" is a relative and brooooooooaaaaaaaad term ;)
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Golden Ace
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Re: Aim, Buildup, and Enhancement Diversification

Postby Golden Ace » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:15 pm

Ah yes, 6-slotted hover. I had a blaster with that. :/ pre ED of course. I remember being very upset all over again when I logged back into him after ED...
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