Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Banished Archangel
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Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Banished Archangel » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:53 pm

http://www.jeremyduffy.com/jordans-town/?page_id=41499

It included a shout-out to SoH and the other successors. It was also a great trip down memory lane.

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Nephthys
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Nephthys » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:09 pm

It was an interesting read, although I disagreed with a large part of it. :lol:

I will agree there needs to be some solo content, but I disagree with the concept that it all, or even most of it, needs to be soloable. It's an MMORPG. The first two letters stand for massively multiplayer. There needs to have content that cannot be done solo, and it needs to provide rewards that cannot be obtained in any other way.

Yes, I understand there are people with families and jobs, and I've been there in terms of wanting something from a raid but being unable to find time to schedule it. I know how frustrating it can be. However, MMOs are massive and multiplayer, and there needs to be content for everyone - that also includes players who are seeking a challenge, and are willing to set aside a chunk of time to work with other people to complete said challenges. That there are people who cannot or will not set aside the time does not justify removing the challenges from those players who do set aside the time to complete said goals.

A pause button in an MMO is nothing more onerous than finding players to group with who do not mind it when you need to step away from the keyboard for a bit. They exist. I've grouped with many of them, and I am one. Heck, I've been in more than a few groups where we've taken an hour long break not once, but several times through the course of the run as people had stuff come up. :)

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JestersGhost
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby JestersGhost » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:24 am

I think the idea there could be a choice is valid though - that running the TF with others is the most time-efficient way of doing it, but a longer, more difficult route for solo players should also be possible.

It doesn't take anything away from the MM-part of the game, since that's still the best choice, but it also doesn't lock out other people.

That's tricky to do well, however, without one side or the other (or both, if done particularly ham-fistedly) feeling screwed over.

And I completely agree that there are players who don't mind pausing play - I'm definitely one, my best friend and main co-gamer has two young kids so it happens pretty regularly.
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Malice Johansson
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Malice Johansson » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:16 pm

Balancing solo-ability with group content is always going to be difficult. I think there needs to be a place for largely solo heroes, but grouping should have tangible rewards to avoid a culture of people that don't want to group up because it's more efficient and effective to run things solo.

I rarely have a lot of completely uninterrupted time to run things, so I appreciated being able to pause a TF and pick it up later (I'm not imagining that, right? I swear that we could do that at one point). Even if that functionality isn't included for whatever reason, I am not averse to group-only content. I just think that soloing should be viable, even if not optimal. When I could group for TFs though...most fun I had in the game, hands-down.

By and large though, I agree with the linked article, even if I have somewhat differently nuanced takes on parts of it.

I really did love that you could get by without a Tank or Brute if you had competent Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors or Dominators. I even saw Masterminds and Scrappers do it. That said, there were a few places where a good Tank or Brute was invaluable and I loved that, too.

CoX was one of the few games where your AT and power sets didn't matter so much as your ability to play what you had. Defenders-sans-Heals were the only group I ever saw people really try to push into a second-class state, and as the game aged that largely faded away (yes, I was a Defender-sans-Heals for a long time and got booted for it more than once).

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Griffin
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Griffin » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:25 pm

[snip]

CoX was one of the few games where your AT and power sets didn't matter so much as your ability to play what you had. Defenders-sans-Heals were the only group I ever saw people really try to push into a second-class state, and as the game aged that largely faded away (yes, I was a Defender-sans-Heals for a long time and got booted for it more than once).
Sorry you got booted for that. Many of my defenders (and controllers too) didn't have heals, and I got kicked a few times for it - WITHOUT a chance to prove it wasn't needed. I later turned to running my own teams, and that was NEVER a reason use to kick someone. I only ever kicked ~1~ person actively, and that was after 3 warnings and the person was being a [redacted] to not only me, but my SG, AND pick up players. The teamed thanked me, but I still felt bad.

Ignoring my ramble... Yes. Teams could be balanced without any SET FORMULA of what worked. Reasonable players with team orientation were unstoppable. (Except Malta. [REDACTED] the Malta! ) You're always welcome on my team. =D


-Griff

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Jordan Yen
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Jordan Yen » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:45 pm

I think the idea there could be a choice is valid though - that running the TF with others is the most time-efficient way of doing it, but a longer, more difficult route for solo players should also be possible.

It doesn't take anything away from the MM-part of the game, since that's still the best choice, but it also doesn't lock out other people.

That's tricky to do well, however, without one side or the other (or both, if done particularly ham-fistedly) feeling screwed over.

And I completely agree that there are players who don't mind pausing play - I'm definitely one, my best friend and main co-gamer has two young kids so it happens pretty regularly.

This is definitely what I was going for. I never intended to suggest that they gimp the MM part of it so much as make it POSSIBLE for solo people to choose a different path. Think about Deus Ex:HR. You could could find many routes to victory. Certainly there should be some rewards to encourage the grouping as well.

Also, thanks to Banished Archangel for posting this. I actually finished setting up my account today to do that when I noticed it had been posted already. Good discussion here, thanks! I'm open to other ideas about improvement.
Please see my Everything I Hope for A City of Heroes Sequel Game article for the most important things I want to see in a new game.

Ferrum
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Ferrum » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:23 pm

I have to admit I don't entirely understand the discussion going on in this thread. What, precisely, is it that people want and exactly what logical arguments are they attempting to make to justify it?

I see Jestersghost said this:
"I think the idea there could be a choice is valid though - that running the TF with others is the most time-efficient way of doing it, but a longer, more difficult route for solo players should also be possible."

And Jordan Yen said this:
"This is definitely what I was going for. I never intended to suggest that they gimp the MM part of it so much as make it POSSIBLE for solo people to choose a different path."

I have always thought that a good MMORPG would contain both group and solo content (though admittedly I can't think of an MMORPG that I've played where I couldn't solo to some extent or another). But I see a distinct difference between containing both group and solo content and the game making sure that everything in the game can be done both grouped and solo. I think that each content is its own path and as such should have its own distinct experiences and rewards. I really don't see a logical reason why all of the group content should also be solo content. I also don't see where the appropriate reward for overcoming the obstacles necessary to put together a group (or that even higher difficulty level; a good group) is 'time efficiency'.

To me the very fact of having both solo content and group content is providing each group with a 'different path' to take through the game. So I really don't see the reasoning behind why the further step of making all group content solo solvable makes sense or is fair but I'm willing to listen to rational arguments. Though I'll admit I don't consider 'because I want it that way' or 'because I don't have time to group' to be rational arguments. When I was younger I had more time to group than I do now. So these days I play much more solo (or duo with my wife) than in groups. But just because I've gotten older and it has become more difficult for me to group doesn't justify, to me, taking away from younger people who have that flexibility the enjoyable experiences it allowed me to have when I was their age. Likewise for other people my age who manage their time better than I do and can thus still find the time they need to group even at a greater age and with greater responsibilities.

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Malice Johansson
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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Malice Johansson » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:50 pm


Ignoring my ramble... Yes. Teams could be balanced without any SET FORMULA of what worked. Reasonable players with team orientation were unstoppable. (Except Malta. [REDACTED] the Malta! ) You're always welcome on my team. =D


-Griff
=D

I think that's really it, the idea that there isn't (wasn't) a set formula that must be adhered to above all else in order to be successful as a group. It's one of the things that really helped me fall in love with the game. My non-healing Stormie was a great tank given the right circumstances (i.e. corners).

For that matter, groups of all one AT were often successful as well given the range that existed within each AT.

And yes...Malta...stupid Sappers.

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Re: Jordan's Town posted a GREAT run-down on what made COH great

Postby Wing Leader » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:21 pm

Indeed.

A group entirely composed of Defenders is absolutely unstoppable. They chew through AVs like piranha. This is because after everyone has buffed each other, every character on the team has Tank-like defenses, Scrapper/Blaster-like DPS, and are facing enemies that can't move, can't hit, can't do damage, and crumble like tissue paper.

I agree with Malice that solo play should be possible, but doesn't have to be optimal for all, or even most, mission chains. If SoH fails to encourage and promote team play to the same extent that pre-F2P CoX did, then something has gone terribly wrong, IMO.


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