Augment limits question

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GladDog
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Augment limits question

Postby GladDog » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:15 am

I, like many other CoHers, was an open to closer. I saw the full range of changes in the game, from horribly imbalanced, to maybe a little too balanced... And something like ED was needed for the game for it to continue. HOWEVER...

The GDN and ED were overreactions to the extreme. For the next 5 years Paragon kept on fixing the overreaction, which was made very tough because of how far Cryptic went and the not-easily-fixed game code.

So what would I like to see? Hard caps. What Cryptic should have done was hard capped the amount of improvement that could be done via enhancements, AND GET RID OF THE SLIDING SCALE!. Many of us on the CoH forums argued for a hard cap of what 4 max SO's supplied. So, for damage the max you could have from enhancements was 153.2%. For damage resistance the max would be 92%. When it became clear that Cryptic was going to go with their 'almost 3 SOs' limit, we stated that at least GET RID OF THE SLIDING SCALE and let it hard cap with 3 maxed SOs worth (114.9% and 69% respectively), As Jack Emmert was known to do, he ignored all comments and did whatever he felt like, driving away a lot of players, including me, some (obviously not me) for good.

Keep in mind that these hard caps are not ultimate caps. A player on a team could receive team buffs and use temp powers to exceed these limits. The limits here were only on what enhancements supplied.

So, I am sure it is obvious that I voted 'OTHER'.
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Pyrion
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby Pyrion » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:38 am

Caps are needed i think. Both soft caps or hard caps are OK for me. Soft caps have more flexibility; if a player really wants to invest a lot in a power he will be able to, but with diminishing returns. Hard caps are easier to communicate and easier to understand and plan for, so that's OK as well. Either way the UI should have a clear indication so players will see when they slot over the cap. As long as i see the effects of slotting very clearly, both systems would be great for me.

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4d4plus4is4d8
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby 4d4plus4is4d8 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:47 am

I'd rather see the players have as much freedom as possible - I was an early COH player (I even beta tested it) then I went away for a long time and when I came back they had implemented the augment system. I created a super-speed character, and I was so frustrated that I couldn't just cram in as many speed buffs as possible.

But on the other hand, I can see how that can get out of control when applied to other powers - if the game allows you to pump in as many damage buffs as you want, then they have to build bad guys with that in mind. Then of course anyone who doesn't have maxed-out damage buffs will be underpowered against the same enemies.

So with that in mind, I'd rather see diminishing returns rather than a hard cap - if someone wants to hyperfocus to squeeze every last point out of something, I don't see any harm in it. In my opinion, game balance is a little overrated, even in PVP, as long as strength is balanced by weakness - if you're strong in damage, you're weak in defense; if you're strong against one type of foe, you're weak against another one.

I always think of the Paladin class and the Undead race from WoW as an example of this philosophy - Paladins should be strong against undead, even other players. And to balance that, undead should have some kind of other advantage against some other kind of player - but instead of making it "Rock, Paper, Scissors," Blizzard just makes everyone a rock.

To me the optimal solution would be to find a way to incentivize diversity, rather than disincentivizing single-mindedness. Like maybe there's an augment that lets you resurrect on the spot instead of having to run back to where you were (if that's how death ends up working.) If you want to slot 100% DPS, then you're going to have to pay for it with some inconvenience. Or maybe there's an augment that makes using the auction house easier, or one that allows you to plug into a private chat network for your supergroup, or Recall to your Hall of Justice.

Assuming that you can't just switch out augments at will, maybe it would be possible to give players such a good reason to diversify that most of them won't want to go too far with min-maxing. The ones that do want to hyperfocus will have an edge in combat against the ones that don't, but maybe people should have the right to feel special in the area they choose to focus on.

On the other hand, though, as I'm thinking this through from the other side, maybe this creates a culture where people start yelling at the DPS guy in their group because he's not min-maxed. If there's a hard cap, a person can be maxed out and still have some room to play around with their build. Or can they? I guess there's always going to be a "perfect build" and people are going to expect you to have it when you do a hard mission.

When I started writing, I was very clear about where I stood on this, and now I've almost talked myself out of it. There's probably no right answer or best way to do it - whatever they decide will be workable and fine.

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Happy Thoughts
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby Happy Thoughts » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:52 am

The two biggest issues I had with ED were that: a) it didn't add slotting options, it simply removed options; and b) it didn't address the core reason people generally ignored certain enhancements--that being that they were of little practical value.

The first concern doesn't apply to Ship of Heroes, as whatever system it launches with will be the baseline and won't be adding or removing anything. Well, other than adding a game to play and enjoy!

As to my second point, this can be avoided by making all enhancements attractive options. For instance, City of Heroes had three (if I'm remembering correctly) different categories of enhancement values. Things like accuracy and damage gave you larger percentage boosts, while others like range and speed had lesser values. On top of that, some enhancement types were of limited value in play. For instance, range sounds neat in theory if one wanted to make a long-range sniper; however, with the minimal range increase it provided and the practical limitations such as limited space in indoor missions and the speed with which mobs could close into melee range, a different enhancement type was almost always a better choice for the enhancement slot.

There are always going to be "optimal" slotting choices that players will generally gravitate toward, regardless of what system is implemented. But if there are slotting options that can be used without making players feel penalized for not using the "meta" formula, that's when variations and true enhancement diversification will be seen, and I believe that will be a good thing for the game.

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Helen_Carnate
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby Helen_Carnate » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:56 pm

I would like to change my vote to match Dog's vote. I voted to allow the freedom to slot all damage and let people learn from their mistakes. I normally believe that people should be free to play however they want (as long as it doesn't break the game or hurt other players). While this could be done, the amount of work needed to figure out how to balance everything over a massive range of slotting options could be much better spent in providing more content and balancing the sets instead of trting to factor in every possibe option. With those caps in place, new content will also be easier to produce because you will know in advance where the limits are for everyone.

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JestersGhost
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby JestersGhost » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:40 pm

this can be avoided by making all enhancements attractive options.
This.

Players only 5 slotted damage because it was by far the best option. If slotting other augments would provide as much return on investment, then there will be a variety of slotting choices.

The problem wasn't that people 5-slotted damage, is was that was all anyone did. It didn't really fix the problem - players all just switched to 1 acc, 1 end, 1 rec and 3 dmg (with slight variations). Yes, there's more variety within a power, but there was still very little variation between powers and players.

The underlying mechanics of the game need to ensure that all augments provide equal benefits in average gameplay. Which is, admittedly, a tough ask, but well worth doing.

So, yeah, I don't support any kind of caps - to me, that just means the mechanics underlying everything aren't robust enough.
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Country Strong
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby Country Strong » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:09 pm

I was happy with the way it was in COH, I'd like to see it similar in SOH.

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Strife3
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby Strife3 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:07 pm

Like most of the CoH community I am waiting for this game to launch. I am watching 4 different games challange to be the successor to CoH and as I see it Ship of Heroes is going to be the one even though I made a Joke of this game reminding me of Power Rangers Lost Galaxy I see this game having what CoH did. I just hope you go deeper into the chargen then CoH did.

Ok I was in CoH before they put the restrictions on enhancements. Which like most I Use to do 2,3,1 or 2,2,2 in attacks and in most others incuding defense was 3,3' I have screen shots and used the tools to make characters ahead of time so I will show on afew powers of how i set them up

Fire/Fire tanks

Primary Fiery Aura

Blazing Aura: Here is where i differed from other tanks
(A)(A)(A)(E)(E)(E) A= Accuracy E=Endurance Reduser
Fiery Sheid
(DR)(DR)(DR)(DR)(E)(E) DR= Damage reduser
Here I had no end issues so the extra resist even though the enhancement was only worth 20% was still worth it
Burn
(D)(D)(D)(R)(R)(R) d=Damage R=Recharge

As they set it up was like this Enhancement 1,2,3 were worth 33% each Now if you used the same enhancement after it went like this 4 was 20% and 5 and 6 were only 3%

Seeing that I only 6 slotted one ability with one enhancement like most people I wanted my powers up all the time so Hasten was always 6 slotted recharge even though 5 and 6 only gave 6%

Now how i think they should do it if they go with reductions first they have to look at each enhancement, if they do an end reduser like coh they need to go like 33/33/33/25/20/20 but when it comes to some like damage output it should be like 33/33/33/20/15/12

Personally I think reductions not a bad thing as to not be overpowered but if you have special enhancements like the crafted ones as well as boss ones you have to go and make them different too.

I personally would love to see all the power sets this game will have because I have afew in mind i would love to post and explain the abilities but I would like to see how the sets will go. is SoH doing the Power Pools like CoH did? Please let us know so people can offer insight to help make this game the best it can be, the one thing i personally saw that was wrong with CoH was when statesman had an idea, no matter how the players felt it went in.

PseudoCool
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby PseudoCool » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:54 pm

I have to agree with many posters here.. and with the "statesman's demand" issue, that was happily resolved when he left CoH. That's the reason I've only ever played CO once, and never went back.

As for limits.. I'm really hoping the dev's look at this as a long term issue. Think of it this way NOW, so that later you don't have to do countless re-tweaks to the numbers is what I mean.

So.. let's look at it this way:
Say Power A get's 6 slots.
Who CARES what you put in those slots, as long as it's an augment that deals with the powers primary and secondary abilities?

The "Cap" should be on the PERCENTAGE of power adjustment given by ANY augment, not on the TYPE of augment inserted. In this way, if you add augments later on in the game that can vastly increase the power's ability, the player will still be able to use that augment (or augment set - hint hint), but it will be costly, not only in terms of dust and time, but also to the power. The balance comes when you say:

Ok.. with a base origin augment, I can put in 4 base origins before I see a diminished return.. 3 advanced origin or set origin before diminished return. etc etc In this way, you set the PERCENTAGE of the return based on the power itself, NOT on the augments you can put in. If someone wants to 6 slot a power for ONE thing.. then let them, and they can deal with the wasted slots, wasted output potential of the power, and wasted dust in buying those augments for slotting such.

But let's be honest.. we all want to be SUPER, no one plays a super hero game to be "above average".. we play to be SUPER. I'd suggest then, having a cap on the percentage of powers before diminished returns take effect.. and a cap on TOTAL percentage of power. This will give both soft and hard caps, and both of those are JUST on the power, not on any buff applied by team mates or inspirations. This will also help with the various mindsets of Min/Max and.. people like me.. number crunchers looking to get the MOST out of every power. (I used to slot electric fence for end drain for example)

Milkshake
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby Milkshake » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:33 pm

~3 years on CoH--heavily time invested; ~6 years on GW1--heavily time invested
CoH main: ToxicMilkshake Fire/Rad Controller (Freedom server)

Sorry I am late to this discussion, I was not around to vote in this poll.
Shout out to "The Positive Gamer" on youtube: I was wandering around looking at Best MMO videos, considering whether I should finally jump onto GW2. I found ShipHero. I thought that any resurrection of CoH was simply a wet dream of many devoted players to a great dead game. (You seriously are not worried what a simple 't' could do to your nickname? Try RISE of HEROES. You want to convince people that you are THE CoH2, no matter what the new environment involves.)

I saw TPG's quick clip comparison of the current-under-development superhero games. I did not play DC, Marvel or Champions, but they did not fill the void of CoH. Best of luck to Valiance and City of Titans, but clearly Ship of Heroes seems to be making a definitive successor to CoH by design. Many things were flawed with CoH, but ShipHeroes aims to better the design as a clear CoH2.

Initial CoH design gave seemingly no thought whatsoever to balance among classes or skills. If you want to make a superhero feel powerful, let their powers flourish into an unstoppable force! OK--CoH accomplished that and then was embarrassed that their toons were TOO powerful?? (only because CrypticStudios wanted to pretend that it had thought of power balance properly for PvP.)

I joined CoH in Summer 2005, so I missed the GDN (nerf!), but right before Enhancement Diversification. By the time ED hit in Issue 6, I was just getting up to speed. Some hinted here that 6-slotting damage was actually foolish in most powers; forget Recharge and Endurance (energy), you needed your power to hit your foe with an accuracy enhancement, right? Well, NO, not really.

TACTICS(Leadership). CoH was built for teaming PvE. Soloing was a small niche. If you could count on any two members of every PUGroup you ever joined to fit Tactics into their power build and properly slot it up, no one on the team would require ANY Accuracy enhancements. That power alone would alter so many builds...if only you could count on two toons fitting it into their build. Nevertheless, if some toon thinks he can get away with 6-slotting DMG, the game design allows him to do this if can just get Tactics support (1 of them provided in his own build)

Stalkers? With two Tactics within range, Stalkers lose their invisibility.

After ED, Recharge was not always a necessary Enh; the standard slotting was 1Acc, 3Dmg at minimum. EndurRedux were slotted around the build where they most effectively saved Energy.

OP: AUGMENT LIMITS? You do not need any artificial soft or hard ceilings on damage or accuracy or recharge if you have thought out the possible power combinations. Did Cryptic Studios really not realize that a player could easily craft a perma-Hasten and then not know the consequences of it? Where were the soft or hard limits on Endurance Reduction?

You cannot just make a smorgasbord of powers for players to throw together to synergize as they see fit, and then wonder why they are so good at doing it. I min/maxed every one of my toons to the limit and respec-ed them again for HOs. I showed up for hundreds of Hamidon raids "Turn off all auras!!" Then, completely reworked my build again for IO set combinations. I paid millions to min/max almost every one of my toons. Oh no, those toons might be overpowered! Your damn right mine are. That is exactly what a superhero is.

---> My comment here revolves around the KNOWLEDGE of powers. CoH was one of the worst. Oh! "Your power is mystical and shoots electrical spasms through your foe." No, shut up and tell me how much damage it does. "This ice power slows your foe." Really? HOW MUCH does it reduce the foe's recharge?!? CoH expected players to grind through 50 levels of progression to find out whether a power set actually worked well or not.

CoH drove me nuts before the 3rd-party power-build-creator software came out. What does Fireball actually do!?! Oh, you wander aimlessly through the forums looking for some blessed player who spent twenty hours carefully plotting data onto a spreadsheet just to figure out what the power was doing. Now you know? Of course not, because if the post mixes a bit of opinion in, like most forums on the internet, it is simply a place festering with misinformation.

Enter Guild Wars 1: With very few vagaries, GW1 told you exactly how much damage a power did, how much energy it took, how much recharge, range, AoE radius. GW1 was forthcoming. In CoH, do you know what the range for the sniper powers was??? Very long.

In CoH, Statesman would nerf a power. After you get through crying about it... OK, NOW what does it do?! You have no idea. Enter the forums. Did this guy do his 20 hours of experimentation before or after Issue 9 nerf?! You are killing me. We can accept the nerf if the game will JUST tell me what the power (now) does!

In GW, they balanced powers all the time. Some powers would occasionally change to a completely new mechanic. Did you like the old power? So sad. At least you now know EXACTLY what the power does IMMEDIATELY after the switch. Do NOT play the nonsensical game of mystical powers.

SUB-NOTE: many players saw what happened to the player culture when City of Villians was introduced. Not surprisingly, many players became jerks and would grief one another. Personally, these players would think: "Of course I am being a jerk--did you not read my nametag?" Players naturally felt that they were properly role-playing and behaving as they should. Introduce other hybrid classes as CoV did--but be careful about what a Villain class will do to your player-base behavior, which greatly influences your success as a Massively-Multiplayer.

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JestersGhost
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Re: Augment limits question

Postby JestersGhost » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:18 am

TACTICS(Leadership). CoH was built for teaming PvE. Soloing was a small niche. If you could count on any two members of every PUGroup you ever joined to fit Tactics into their power build and properly slot it up, no one on the team would require ANY Accuracy enhancements. That power alone would alter so many builds...if only you could count on two toons fitting it into their build. Nevertheless, if some toon thinks he can get away with 6-slotting DMG, the game design allows him to do this if can just get Tactics support (1 of them provided in his own build)

Stalkers? With two Tactics within range, Stalkers lose their invisibility.
I'm constantly amazed at the number of game designers who seem to be bad at basic math :)
---> My comment here revolves around the KNOWLEDGE of powers. CoH was one of the worst. Oh! "Your power is mystical and shoots electrical spasms through your foe." No, shut up and tell me how much damage it does. "This ice power slows your foe." Really? HOW MUCH does it reduce the foe's recharge?!? CoH expected players to grind through 50 levels of progression to find out whether a power set actually worked well or not.

CoH drove me nuts before the 3rd-party power-build-creator software came out. What does Fireball actually do!?! Oh, you wander aimlessly through the forums looking for some blessed player who spent twenty hours carefully plotting data onto a spreadsheet just to figure out what the power was doing. Now you know? Of course not, because if the post mixes a bit of opinion in, like most forums on the internet, it is simply a place festering with misinformation.
To be fair, CoH did add the stats window later on that let you have running totals of any quantities you wanted (like accuracy, defense, etc.), though yes, it was still less clear on the exact numbers for individual powers.

I agree that giving us the raw numbers (even if it's via an option to show them) makes far more sense - many more eyes looking at these things helps find problems so much quicker.
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