Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

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olepi
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Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby olepi » Tue May 21, 2019 9:51 am

Given that there is a limited amount of graphics that can be rendered at once, what do you prefer, very detailed character models and environments at the cost of extra flashy graphics? Or would you sacrifice some details in order to get more graphics effects on the screen?

1) I want the most detailed character models possible, including moving faces with expressions, etc. And I want very detailed environments. I don't care as much about the graphics effects of the powers.

2) I'd like a good balance between character and environmental details, while still having good graphics effects of the powers.

3) I want the graphics effects to get the most details, and am willing to sacrifice some of the character models and the environment. A simple character with fancy powers.

4) I want a slider in the game so I can choose in-game. Tone up the graphics effects, or tone up the models.
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olepi
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby olepi » Tue May 21, 2019 9:57 am

Looking at the old game, I was struck by how basic the character models were, and how little detail the environments had. But the graphics effects were over the top.

I didn't mind having a simple fixed face all the time, since it is mostly obscured by all the effects going off in a fight. I didn't mind that grass was really just green paint on the ground, since I can't see the ground when everybody is using flashy powers.

So I thought this might make a good poll question. Other people may prefer a very detailed character in a very detailed environment, and are willing to sacrifice some of the flashy graphics effects.
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Apparition » Tue May 21, 2019 10:43 am

Looking at the old game, I was struck by how basic the character models were, and how little detail the environments had. But the graphics effects were over the top.

I didn't mind having a simple fixed face all the time, since it is mostly obscured by all the effects going off in a fight. I didn't mind that grass was really just green paint on the ground, since I can't see the ground when everybody is using flashy powers.

So I thought this might make a good poll question. Other people may prefer a very detailed character in a very detailed environment, and are willing to sacrifice some of the flashy graphics effects.
The environments in CoH got much better as the game aged. There is quite a glaring difference between say Imperial City or Kallisti Wharf, and Skyway or Steel Canyon.

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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Illililili » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:34 pm

Isn't this a false choice? I have been playing Black Desert Online recently, and the characters are almost photo realistic. The animation graphics are also pretty sweet. Why do you think you cannot have both?

For that matter, I do not understand why other games being produced are not working towards the same level of graphics. Am I missing something (other than thousands of hours of artist time maybe)?

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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Odee » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:36 am

Given that there is a limited amount of graphics that can be rendered at once, what do you prefer, very detailed character models and environments at the cost of extra flashy graphics? Or would you sacrifice some details in order to get more graphics effects on the screen?

1) I want the most detailed character models possible, including moving faces with expressions, etc. And I want very detailed environments. I don't care as much about the graphics effects of the powers.

2) I'd like a good balance between character and environmental details, while still having good graphics effects of the powers.

3) I want the graphics effects to get the most details, and am willing to sacrifice some of the character models and the environment. A simple character with fancy powers.

4) I want a slider in the game so I can choose in-game. Tone up the graphics effects, or tone up the models.
Number 3 please.
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Consultant » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:29 am

First off, this is a great poll question. I'll get it organized and queued up shortly. Thank you!

With regard to whether this is a false choice...no, it isn't. Every game that I am familiar with has a "budget" for ms or FPS. So much for the characters, so much for the environment, so much for the powers and animations (yes, those have an impact on the GPU), and so much for the FX, among other things. And of course, one of the big things is other players on the screen with you. SP games are much less demanding than multiplayer games in some regards, and other players on the screen is one of those things.

BDO is a great game, with great graphical quality. I don't think I would quite call it photo-realism, but it is a great game. And when you saw that we did a real test last December, with our real characters, with up to 100 players from all over the world using their real computers, in our real city, and in close proximity, this was actually a big deal. Look around for the other MMOs in Alpha for who have done this.

I'd like to know. :)

So we are working every day to give all of you a great game, and wonderful graphical quality. We will all see how we do. But so far, we pretty much are where we wanted to be. It does not look to us like we need to reduce graphical quality of the models, or the environment or the FX to hit our FPS goals, and we don't think you need to play the game in a city filled with mist that prevents you from seeing more than 200 feet in any direction (some games do this). A lot of games have a sudden reduction in visual quality at launch (which is why the trailers sometimes look so much better than the actual games, in those cases). we don't expect this to happen to us, mostly because we've been planning to not have it happen for three years.

I'll get that poll question up soon.

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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby olepi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:10 pm

A related question is what kind of hardware is the target? My old PC is similar to today's PS4 Pro, and it can run the old game without a hitch. When the old game was written, however, back in 2004, my hardware would have been off the charts.

(In 1980, I used to buy computer systems for Motorola, and just for fun, I calculated what my home PC would cost back in 1980. Each 300mb disk back then cost $15,000, and my 3 TB disk today would be 9,000 of those! Disk cost alone would be $135 MILLION!!)

Anyway, the graphics capabilities of the target hardware will tend to set the budget for the graphics. But we know in 2-5 years, the hardware will improve, probably dramatically.

So the question really is: what would you trade-off? Models and environment? Graphics effects? And *what hardware is the target*?
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Consultant » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:25 pm

We think that hardware and software and Internet connection speed all matter.

That was one of the reasons we did the Login Test -- so people could test with their real computers, see the results in terms of FPS -- and share results with other people. We thought that was much more accurate than any "test" we could do with ten guys and our computers.

But we have added a bunch of capabilities ito the game to allow players to make trade-offs between different kinds of qualities. You can speed up FPS and suppress animation quality, for example, or eliminate the FX of other players, or stop you computer from tracking or rendering FX that is out of your direct sight on the screen.

So if you want to know the best rig for SoH, the best thing to do is to look at some of the results of the Login Test and compare to what you have.

Also, you can ask GladDog -- he has enormous skill with hardware. :)

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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Golden Ace » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:09 pm

Also, you can ask GladDog -- he has enormous skill with hardware. :)
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Gerald_Deemer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:33 pm

Having to much graphical effects on the screen is killing the fun. If you have to search your character on the screen after a giant colorful explosion is exacly the thing what lots of isometric games like Diablo did wrong.

A good balance is the only true way.
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby thomenas » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:44 pm

Having to much graphical effects on the screen is killing the fun. If you have to search your character on the screen after a giant colorful explosion is exacly the thing what lots of isometric games like Diablo did wrong.

A good balance is the only true way.
You mean Diablo III of course?

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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Blaze Rocker » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:04 pm

Gerald_Deemer
Having to much graphical effects on the screen is killing the fun. If you have to search your character on the screen after a giant colorful explosion is exacly the thing what lots of isometric games like Diablo did wrong.

A good balance is the only true way.
CoH ended up with this issue/problem.

They eventually added costume effects that were either on all of the time or they activated when the player-character was in combat. When you add in those effects to all the stuff that's already on the screen, active and remains of powers, it was not only difficult to spot your character and your enemies it was also slowing down frame rates. I'm sure frame rate lag won't be as big of an issue with SoH as it was with CoH but what I would like to see/have is the ability to turn off or on some of those extra effects whenever we choose, either through the CCT or in the UI. Waterfall capes and smoldering auras are great and all when you're just hanging out, traveling or posing for a costume contest but when there are flames on the ground, rubble blasting into the air or two dispersion shield bubbles already obscuring your vision during a massive fight . . . I don't think that very many people are going to be paying attention to how well their costume effects make their characters stand out.

If you could give us the ability to just turn 'em off that would be awesome.
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Consultant » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:47 pm

Agreed. I've told this story before, but I made a rad/rad defender who could cast resistance buffs on people. When I made the character I thought it was so cool to make the buffs a persistent light blue flame, which played over the recipients of the buff.

At the first Rikti raid for this guy I buffed the whole group and someone dryly commented that "it's like playing from inside a scented candle."

It would have been good if players could have turned off the FX but kept the buff.

And right now, a blanced approach to tradeoffs is winning in the poll, and fortunately no one wants speaking expressions, which would have delayed the game.

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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby Golden Ace » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:54 pm

no one wants speaking expressions, which would have delayed the game.
speaking expressions.... I honestly have seldom ever looked close enough at an avatar's face to see if its face moved.

the thought never occurred to me. but now that it has....

one day I firmly believe that these games will be much like that ready player one movie.

until then not important.
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Re: Do you prefer detailed graphics models, or more flash?

Postby GladDog » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:50 am

I can't think of a single MMORPG with NPCs who's lips move, even in cut scenes. It is a waste of resources IMO. That does not mean we can't have great detail in our models :) If this is something the team wants to add later, that's great, but it is not needed now if it slows release.

I want to state that the models and face generator are plenty good at the moment for release. If the team wants to improve them. all the better, but save it for after release when you can devote the proper resources to doing so.

I like subtle effects on characters and big booms! I suppose that was from watching helicopter launched ordinance being tested when I was in the Marine Corps. Some of those BOOMS were very impressive!
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