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Powersets reveal question

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:12 am
by GladDog
Given that powersets generally have 10-12 powers per set, how many powersets should we show per update? This does not affect the rate at which we create powers.

One
Two
Three
More than three

Personally, I voted two, although I was torn between 1 and 2. I like to analyze the sets as theya re being presented, so 1 or 2 at a time gives me time to work out the way the set(s) work.

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:39 am
by Avatar PDM
I kind of like the Number 3
but I think the question would be with how many it starts after all it is part of the creation process. So if there is only a low number of power sets, of course the characters creatable would just be as limited.
Brings me to the question, if powers can be changed on a character. Lets say you start playing a character which you create with what is there but it is only a compromise, because you had something in your mind which wasn´t available at the time and you did it anyway, because you did not know if the exact idea would ever be possible. Then the exact power set pops up - can you change it then or would you be forced to delete the existing character and start from scratch?

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:04 am
by Golden Ace
I went with two.

I would love more updates though :D

if we had more updates I would go with one. :D

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:58 am
by GladDog
I've talked to Consultant a lot about powersets. The team took the time to develop a powerset creation tool. This simplifies the process of putting the set together, but at the end there is a lot of work to do.

The way it works is that you have a number of variables; accuracy, damage, recycle, range, chance of secondary effect, etc. So, you pick three low level attacks and decide they all have to have a total value of 10. These all have the same accuracy and range.
One power has low damage and fast recycle.
One power has high damage and slow recycle.
One has low damage, slow recycle, but adds an AoE effect. Adding an AoE effect may require raising the mana cost to make it add up to 10.

All variables for all three powers add to ten. Once you have these powers, you make another set with a total value of 12. And 15. And so on. When you raise the total value of a set, you must significantly increase the cost of using them by increasing their mana cost. Otherwise, the early powers start looking like leaches that you can't get rid of. But if you only have 5 mana, and the only power you can fire is that low level one that costs three, it sure looks pretty!

Once you have the powerset, now you have to assign each power an animation, a VFX with color range, an SFX, and an assigned origin point.

Altogether is seems that a typical powerset requires about 6 weeks for one programmer to finalize. Since there is a lot on the programmer's tables, it may take 8 weeks to finish one. Once the supporters beta starts, they may be able to bring in some extra programming might and assign two people to the job!

The bottom line is that if you say 3, there may only be one update every few months until the supporters beta starts.

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:06 pm
by Golden Ace
Awesome Post GladDog. that is invaluable information.

Thank you

GA

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:42 am
by Eulb
My My My ... there is so much work that the DEV's are doing ... wow it's for me so I can play a fun game ... wow TY DEV's

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:24 am
by Avatar PDM
I've talked to Consultant a lot about powersets. The team took the time to develop a powerset creation tool. This simplifies the process of putting the set together, but at the end there is a lot of work to do.

The way it works is that you have a number of variables; accuracy, damage, recycle, range, chance of secondary effect, etc. So, you pick three low level attacks and decide they all have to have a total value of 10. These all have the same accuracy and range.
One power has low damage and fast recycle.
One power has high damage and slow recycle.
One has low damage, slow recycle, but adds an AoE effect. Adding an AoE effect may require raising the mana cost to make it add up to 10.

All variables for all three powers add to ten. Once you have these powers, you make another set with a total value of 12. And 15. And so on. When you raise the total value of a set, you must significantly increase the cost of using them by increasing their mana cost. Otherwise, the early powers start looking like leaches that you can't get rid of. But if you only have 5 mana, and the only power you can fire is that low level one that costs three, it sure looks pretty!

Once you have the powerset, now you have to assign each power an animation, a VFX with color range, an SFX, and an assigned origin point.

Altogether is seems that a typical powerset requires about 6 weeks for one programmer to finalize. Since there is a lot on the programmer's tables, it may take 8 weeks to finish one. Once the supporters beta starts, they may be able to bring in some extra programming might and assign two people to the job!

The bottom line is that if you say 3, there may only be one update every few months until the supporters beta starts.
That sounds like a very well thought nice concept - thank you very much.
I want to use the chance also to thank the team and I think its great how you are trying to make your progress transparent and show it with us all.

After knowing those details I would say one is just fine. Better having new possiblities in a shorter period of time and the the progress than having to wait ages for something. Still, it would be great if there could be a approximate time schedule (like an advent calendar - every 8 weeks you open a door ;) ) so we know what we can be looking forward to :). Oh and will there be the possiblity to change power sets on an existing character?

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:20 am
by Penniguin
I said one.
Whenever a new power set is revealed, I stop and start the video A LOT, looking for the effects, both stats and visual. I am not a number cruncher with power sets but I do what a better understanding how they work and combinations. One power set video will last me for days sometimes weeks if I am really intrigued by it. One power set will due me for while.

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:10 am
by Consultant
This question has an issue buried in it for us. Right now we make a video for each major offensive powerset. If you notice, the videos are about 4 minutes long, for 10-12 powers.

Do we want to have longer videos with 30 powers in them? Do we need the same sort of videos for the secondary (defensive) powers on a brawler? We're sort of thinking we do not.

And would it be better to show the powers in some other way than in the powers testing center?

Maybe we should do a 10 minute gameplay video and show off new powersets that way? but if we do that, people like Penniguin will be stopping and starting a lot to try to see everything. Hmmm.

Also, for reference, it was our intent to have at least four offensive and four defensive powersets for the tank/brawler classes at Beta. Now we have kind of crept up to five powersets. And similarly for the devastator and support classes. So that is 20 powersets at launch. And we are slowly working on some controller powersets too. So we will launch with some options to choose from.

Another element is that we are designing the powersets so a character generally does not take all of the powers in a set. You choose. And it is definitely not as simple as maximizing DPS.

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:41 am
by Golden Ace
This question has an issue buried in it for us. Right now we make a video for each major offensive powerset. If you notice, the videos are about 4 minutes long, for 10-12 powers.

Do we want to have longer videos with 30 powers in them? Do we need the same sort of videos for the secondary (defensive) powers on a brawler? We're sort of thinking we do not.

And would it be better to show the powers in some other way than in the powers testing center?

Maybe we should do a 10 minute gameplay video and show off new powersets that way? but if we do that, people like Penniguin will be stopping and starting a lot to try to see everything. Hmmm.

Also, for reference, it was our intent to have at least four offensive and four defensive powersets for the tank/brawler classes at Beta. Now we have kind of crept up to five powersets. And similarly for the devastator and support classes. So that is 20 powersets at launch. And we are slowly working on some controller powersets too. So we will launch with some options to choose from.

Another element is that we are designing the powersets so a character generally does not take all of the powers in a set. You choose. And it is definitely not as simple as maximizing DPS.
Do a video for every powerset you make. Then show the set against the dummies for 4- 5 minutes like normal - then do the Alpha gauntlet run you set up but with a bunch of minions with it. It will not look good if your power demonstration shows you dying. so with minions... :D

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:01 am
by Healy

Personally, I voted two, although I was torn between 1 and 2. I like to analyze the sets as they are being presented, so 1 or 2 at a time gives me time to work out the way the set(s) work.
GladDog's comment reflects my sentiment too...
Also, in my view, more is not always better as it can lead to diffusion of effort and diffusion of adoption. Adoption of new features by a substantial set of users allows for better feedback (to the devs) if there are issues too. I combine this feeling with another post describing the amount of work to create and refine each powerset, the time to create more powersets (more than 1 or 2 per update) might be much better spent on other refinements or new features.

Healy

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:38 pm
by WRThore
Just as long as I can re-create something similar to my claws/regen Scrapper. (Hint, hint) 8-)

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:49 pm
by Eulb
Hey WRThore you claws regen you want ...
Just as long as I can re-create something similar to my claws/regen Scrapper. (Hint, hint) 8-)
The Claws that you want ... may have to wait for one of the issue's after launch as a " power set expansion " from the DEV's ... :cry: 4u

Re: Powersets reveal question

Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:37 pm
by WRThore
That’s alright 8-) The main powerset I want was already confirmed :)
Hey WRThore you claws regen you want ...
Just as long as I can re-create something similar to my claws/regen Scrapper. (Hint, hint) 8-)
The Claws that you want ... may have to wait for one of the issue's after launch as a " power set expansion " from the DEV's ... :cry: 4u