Control Powers

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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:01 am

Personally, I'd love to see everything have strengths and weaknesses to different kinds of attacks, like you mentioned mindless robots vr psy type attacks. Fire elementals vr fire attacks, etc. Then again, I'd love to see us players get some resistance to our own power sets- are you a psyonisist, master of the mind? Then it makes sense you'd have some resistance to mental attacks.
you got a point here :)
yep it makes definitely sense, that there are immunities for certain powers (which the character has himself for example like you stated :) )
but then it also would be as logic to have weaknesses too - like a fire powered guy has weaknesses against one with ice or vice versa for example
[/quote]

Immunity or resistance to makes sense for many powers. You could also do an immunity to a power you don't have. Like Cyclops' force beams and his brother Havok's [quantum, I forget, did they decide his power was quantum?] energy beams. It has been shown that each is immune to his brother's power but can be affected by their own power if it is reflected back to them.

Now way back in the 60s, Johnny Storm Human Torch fought what he thought was the original Human Torch of the 40s, turned out that it was actually Toro and they both were able to do some damage to each other but their powers were somewhat resisted.

Or Superman, while not especially vulnerable to magic, is as affected by magic as a normal person. So he has absolutely no resistance versus magic attacks.

So every "plus" you take, you must take a "minus".

Now how you would program something like that and keep it working .... :?:
[/quote]

Well, I believe brainstorming like we do can give ideas, even if it is absolutely unrealistic and maybe our idea makes them have other ideas, so I don´t really mind the question how it is to be programmed. It is just that one should not be too disappointed if unrealistic ideas won´t be used ;). Anyway, since it is absolutely chaotic having unrelated immunities, that is why I stayed with the logic aspects where I agreed with that idea but I won´t shed a tear if it won´t make it ;)
About your question, they called it most times ambient cosmic energies (which he also did automatically and consciously absorb in various ways - as I see it he kind of must have been even able to absorb a Heralds Energy according to that logic, thinking about it), which mostly where converted into some kind of plasma beams.
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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:52 am

So every "plus" you take, you must take a "minus".

Now how you would program something like that and keep it working .... :?:
The difficulty with those schemes is simply players are very good at working out what the least disadvantageous disadvantage is :P

For example, in CoH, if players had had that choice, most people would have taken "weakness to psychic" and "resistant to lethal/smashing", since those were the least and most common damage types respectively.

With the massive range of damage types SoH is likely to have, trying to ensure every single type is used evenly with the same damage output...yeah, I don't envy the designer in charge of that little headache.

You need to keep it simple. Now while I think there's a place for minimal damage types (too many options is just as bad as too few, after all), that isn't the situation we have.

To drag this post back onto the original topic, however, if we were to talk resistance/weakness to control powers, we find initially a similar situation: slow, immobilise, hold, stun, intangible, recharge slow, confuse, knock-up, knock-down, knock-back, etc.

Look at the broad effects, however, and you only have three (everything else is a matter of degree): limiting movement, limiting power activation, limiting target selection.

Immobilise, slow, knock-up, knock-down, knock-back, hold, stun: limiting movement
silence, hold, stun, recharge slow, knock-up, knock-down, knock-back: limiting power activation
intangible, confuse, knock-back, blind: limiting target selection

Now, having variable resistances to a category makes things vary interesting. Resistant to power activation limits, but not movement limits - that hold will transition into an immobilise before it wears off, or you'll be able to fire your powers while in the air if knocked-up.

And trying to pick which category you want to be strong against, and which one weak against? I dunno, that's a pretty tough choice, certainly a lot harder to call than which damage types you'd want to be resistant to.
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:06 am

So every "plus" you take, you must take a "minus".

Now how you would program something like that and keep it working .... :?:
The difficulty with those schemes is simply players are very good at working out what the least disadvantageous disadvantage is :P

For example, in CoH, if players had had that choice, most people would have taken "weakness to psychic" and "resistant to lethal/smashing", since those were the least and most common damage types respectively.

With the massive range of damage types SoH is likely to have, trying to ensure every single type is used evenly with the same damage output...yeah, I don't envy the designer in charge of that little headache.

You need to keep it simple. Now while I think there's a place for minimal damage types (too many options is just as bad as too few, after all), that isn't the situation we have.

To drag this post back onto the original topic, however, if we were to talk resistance/weakness to control powers, we find initially a similar situation: slow, immobilise, hold, stun, intangible, recharge slow, confuse, knock-up, knock-down, knock-back, etc.

Look at the broad effects, however, and you only have three (everything else is a matter of degree): limiting movement, limiting power activation, limiting target selection.

Immobilise, slow, knock-up, knock-down, knock-back, hold, stun: limiting movement
silence, hold, stun, recharge slow, knock-up, knock-down, knock-back: limiting power activation
intangible, confuse, knock-back, blind: limiting target selection

Now, having variable resistances to a category makes things vary interesting. Resistant to power activation limits, but not movement limits - that hold will transition into an immobilise before it wears off, or you'll be able to fire your powers while in the air if knocked-up.

And trying to pick which category you want to be strong against, and which one weak against? I dunno, that's a pretty tough choice, certainly a lot harder to call than which damage types you'd want to be resistant to.
Thanks for the interesting analysation - I never thought about a Controller like that, but I really tend to believe you are right!
Was there really never any kind of manipulation (like making some NPC do something he wouldn´t have done otherwise)?

Of course that kind of destinction would make it surely easier to define strengthes and weaknesses by having weaknesses agains one of those three (four) power types and special strenght in another type - but I somehow have the feeling that wouldn´t be what our former idea-giver had meant.
But generally of course you are right, it is a tough choice!
Maybe you don´t have to pick a weakness, but if you choose to do so, you can choose a strength to make up for it - how about that idea?
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:33 pm

Was there really never any kind of manipulation (like making some NPC do something he wouldn´t have done otherwise)?
What can you make him do?

Move somewhere else? That's movement limiting.
Control what powers he uses (or doesn't?) Power limiting.
Change who he attacks? Target limiting.

Those are the only things you can do in an MMO (in combat, obviously stuff like chat, etc. isn't included). Therefore, those are the fundamental things that you can "control" with a control power.

It's also true cross-genre too. FPS? Movement, weapon/ability selection, aim. Same three.
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Re: Control Powers

Postby indigowulf » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:45 pm

Was there really never any kind of manipulation (like making some NPC do something he wouldn´t have done otherwise)?
What can you make him do?

Move somewhere else? That's movement limiting.
Control what powers he uses (or doesn't?) Power limiting.
Change who he attacks? Target limiting.

Those are the only things you can do in an MMO (in combat, obviously stuff like chat, etc. isn't included). Therefore, those are the fundamental things that you can "control" with a control power.

It's also true cross-genre too. FPS? Movement, weapon/ability selection, aim. Same three.

Now you have me thinking about Otto's Irresistible Dance from D&D, and I want a controller who can make people just stand there and dance/emote instead of fighting :P
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Golden Ace » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:50 pm


Now you have me thinking about Otto's Irresistible Dance from D&D, and I want a controller who can make people just stand there and dance/emote instead of fighting :P
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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:39 am

Now you have me thinking about Otto's Irresistible Dance from D&D, and I want a controller who can make people just stand there and dance/emote instead of fighting :P
ObCoT reference: https://youtu.be/AMa96DNnRA8?t=40s

I do think the Titans' team has done an amazing job on the customisation aspect of powers, and I hope we'll get something like this eventually in SoH.
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Consultant » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:32 am

That particular power is not too hard to do. You just enable a dance emote instead of, or in addition to, the "normal" FX and damage. In a way, it could be a substitute for a fully developed power system.

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Re: Control Powers

Postby alteredminds1 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:55 am

i sure have missed the word placate :)

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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:08 am

Was there really never any kind of manipulation (like making some NPC do something he wouldn´t have done otherwise)?
What can you make him do?

Move somewhere else? That's movement limiting.
Control what powers he uses (or doesn't?) Power limiting.
Change who he attacks? Target limiting.

Those are the only things you can do in an MMO (in combat, obviously stuff like chat, etc. isn't included). Therefore, those are the fundamental things that you can "control" with a control power.

It's also true cross-genre too. FPS? Movement, weapon/ability selection, aim. Same three.
according to your definition you surely can channel all the possible variations in those words. I don´t mind since you specified it that way :)

About Vertigos Idea ;) - that would go to power limiting according to Jesters Definition and the Boss said, it is possible - so lets make them dance :twisted:
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Re: Control Powers

Postby indigowulf » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:29 pm

Now you have me thinking about Otto's Irresistible Dance from D&D, and I want a controller who can make people just stand there and dance/emote instead of fighting :P
ObCoT reference: https://youtu.be/AMa96DNnRA8?t=40s

I do think the Titans' team has done an amazing job on the customisation aspect of powers, and I hope we'll get something like this eventually in SoH.
OMG that's awesome and I love it!
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Re: Control Powers

Postby JestersGhost » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:23 pm

according to your definition you surely can channel all the possible variations in those words. I don´t mind since you specified it that way :)
It was kind of the point too :D I'm not pulling some linguistic trick here - the whole reason for that categorisation was to be able to channel all possible variations into one or the other of them, while still being logical divisions. Each entry in a category, if applied for the same length of time, will have *exactly* the same concrete effect on a character, regardless of the cosmetics of how it looks - a 2 second stun and a 2 second knock-up are identical from a functional perspective. Balancing across categories makes things much simpler.

It's also good for combinations powers. There might not be much space for synergy between characters if your mega-nuke only triggers on knocked-down targets, say. If it can trigger off any movement-limited targets, however, there's a whole new spectrum of possible combinations, making the power that much more useful.
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am

according to your definition you surely can channel all the possible variations in those words. I don´t mind since you specified it that way :)
It was kind of the point too :D I'm not pulling some linguistic trick here - the whole reason for that categorisation was to be able to channel all possible variations into one or the other of them, while still being logical divisions. Each entry in a category, if applied for the same length of time, will have *exactly* the same concrete effect on a character, regardless of the cosmetics of how it looks - a 2 second stun and a 2 second knock-up are identical from a functional perspective. Balancing across categories makes things much simpler.

It's also good for combinations powers. There might not be much space for synergy between characters if your mega-nuke only triggers on knocked-down targets, say. If it can trigger off any movement-limited targets, however, there's a whole new spectrum of possible combinations, making the power that much more useful.
nothing much to say to it except, that I want to give honor where honor is due - that sounds perfect :)
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

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Re: Control Powers

Postby darktower » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:01 pm

and with that thought from darktower about propabilities being dependent on intelligence my stats idea would actually make practical sense :roll:
(maybe it might be possible having a few points to individualize a stats system - like some games have - and use that for propabilities ? Again I don´t know that might be impossible to include the planned and existing system - if not it surely for some will be fun)
I meant that all the powers in the game are made of the same "atoms" of effect - everyone knows what they are. But where it really matters is that it gives the game it's legendary balance. For example, in some games (SWTOR is a great example - I love SWTOR, but it's not good at what I'm talking about), the abilities are just some metrics that the dev's describe, but they can do anything with those metrics. You never know exactly what a power does because every power is essentially custom. This make balance very difficult to achieve from the Dev's perspective and it means that there is no real symmetry to the powers in the game - you as the player have to read everything carefully.

Whereas in CoH, you know that Katana is all about reducing defense, and you know exactly what defense is. It creates a kind of "metric vocabulary" that everyone can speak and it makes it easier for people to think about, plan and talk to others about builds and play styles. It's an idea taken from the universe itself, where materials are made of molecules and molecules are made of atoms. It's great design, and it's probably one of the most beloved aspects of the game, second maybe to killer MoCap, stunning frame rate and excellent sprite and billboard usage.

You guys are all beautiful - I love the way you're all sharing and talking about this. I've got my eye on Ship of Heroes too, but I'm also back on CoH, as I'm sure many of you are. I hope you're all having loads of fun and look forward to seeing any of you in game.

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Re: Control Powers

Postby darktower » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:07 pm

Great post, JestersGhost - I am also very interested in classic disadvantages - as in the old Champions and current Hero game systems. Some Hunted's would be really cool, and fairly easy to pull off from a scripting standpoint, since it's basically a ambush.

So many creative people with great thoughts on here! :D


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