Control Powers

darktower
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Re: Control Powers

Postby darktower » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:15 pm

1. One of the best aspects of CoH/CoV is the extremely orthogonal nature of the power effects (all of them, including non-control effects) - that is to say that all powers in the game were constructed of the same atomic power effects. This is also very similar to how Champions works.
2. Developing that point further with regards to control powers: The set of control-related effects in CoH is therefore both very atomic, uniform and known to the player. More importantly: Those effects have real meaning - in CoH controls are a huge part of the tactics used in game play from group level to raid level. If I were in your position (and I am a developer and I have game projects in various stages of completion, so I have gone through this exercise) - I would make absolutely sure that my power system was atomic, and that all control effects have actual tactical meaning.

One of the worst things about SWTOR (as an example) is both the lack of atomicity of effects and the fact that control effects in that game are annoying and close to meaningless. Most effects rendered on the player don't last long enough to even warrant a break-out power. Most elite bosses are immune to control effects (which represents a stellar level of stupidity in my humble opinion). CoH by comparison, handled that case with magnitudes, so you can either have a very sticky hold or you could stack them with team mates and still get a hold to stick on a raid boss.

Slow in SWTOR is absolutely stupid. If just slows the movement of the target on the ground. That was another effect that CoH got right - has to be slowing of action frequency / recharge.

Confuse: Confuse is unique to CoH to my knowledge (could be wrong), and is one of the most unique and interesting control effects I've ever seen. I liked the suggestion made by someone else in this thread - the idea of enemies attacking the confused individual after being attacked. I will see and raise that idea with this: It would be fantastic if you had an intelligence probability for enemies with high enough intelligence which determined whether the remaining un-confused group members would aggro and attempt to locate the source of the confusion. This could be thwarted by a caster by having invisibility or stealth. But it would add further depth and realism for being a confusion-bearing hero - i.e. that you'd have to make a conscious decision about having stealth or invis.

I have a lot of ideas in general and specific to control powers, but I think that is enough for now.

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Golden Ace
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Golden Ace » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:21 pm

Thank you darktower that was a very good reads
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Avatar PDM
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:45 am

and with that thought from darktower about propabilities being dependent on intelligence my stats idea would actually make practical sense :roll:
(maybe it might be possible having a few points to individualize a stats system - like some games have - and use that for propabilities ? Again I don´t know that might be impossible to include the planned and existing system - if not it surely for some will be fun)
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brawlizard
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Re: Control Powers

Postby brawlizard » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:53 am

1. atomic.
Darktower, in what sense are you using the word atomic? I.e. smallest possible piece of a larger system? Something else?
It would help to know thatto understand what you are getting at

Sentinel King
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Sentinel King » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:59 pm

1. atomic.
Darktower, in what sense are you using the word atomic? I.e. smallest possible piece of a larger system? Something else?
It would help to know thatto understand what you are getting at
I'm thinking Darktower meant that each control-set had very slight variations on the same abilities ...single-target root, single-target hold, group-root, group-hold, group-sleep, etc. If one leveled-up an ice controller in CoX, it would be very easy to do a subsequent controller of a different type (earth, fire, etc) as the powers and power-progression were similar from set to set. Sure there were nuances...i'm lookin' at you, mind, illusion and gravity control but for the most part, any controller type could pretty much fit any scenario that needed a controller.

that's my guess anyway.

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Avatar PDM
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:24 am

1. atomic.
Darktower, in what sense are you using the word atomic? I.e. smallest possible piece of a larger system? Something else?
It would help to know thatto understand what you are getting at
I'm thinking Darktower meant that each control-set had very slight variations on the same abilities ...single-target root, single-target hold, group-root, group-hold, group-sleep, etc. If one leveled-up an ice controller in CoX, it would be very easy to do a subsequent controller of a different type (earth, fire, etc) as the powers and power-progression were similar from set to set. Sure there were nuances...i'm lookin' at you, mind, illusion and gravity control but for the most part, any controller type could pretty much fit any scenario that needed a controller.

that's my guess anyway.
true - due to the similarity of the power concepts I guess it would basically just be an exchange of the optics. how the powers work on your opponent would be similar between all those powersets (could imagine, that he meant that) and therefore only what we see would differ and not all the work behind it (I assume)
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

Midnight
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Midnight » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:47 pm

I was re-reading this thread and the knockback powers got me thinking. Wouldn't it be fun if we could knock someone through a wall, leaving a person-shaped hole in the wall? I know it's not realistic from a programming point-of-view, but now that's the only thing I think of when we talk about knockback powers.

Holechek
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Holechek » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:14 am

Hopefully the legendary Jack Frost makes a cameo! :D :D :D

Blue Yankee
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Blue Yankee » Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:14 pm

I am hoping for a control power set that specializes on slowing down the enemies. Slowing down movement and rate of attacking, Maybe a time controller or ice controller?

legacy72
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Re: Control Powers

Postby legacy72 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:59 pm

The illusion controller's pets in CoH were not permanent pets, they were just another illusion power, except for maybe the most powerful one (the most powerful did stay up until you banished him). But most would only stay up for anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 minutes and then you'd have to wait another minute or two for each power to cooldown; usually the weaker "power pets" wouldn't even make it through a whole battle. My point, I guess, is except for the most powerful one, they weren't following your toon around, like if you were traveling between zones or something. Just throwing that out there when the devs are considering what to develop for a controller. I could see how programming pets to follow a character in the game could make coding more complex.

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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:36 am

hey that is a cool idea (Blue Yankee had it ;) )

yep time control would be great :)

Increase or Decrease Movement
just picture you would not just slow down enemies up to immobilizing you could also speed up friends, up to teleport by turning down time to zero which would make instant travel between to points possible

Protection:
you could create time fields, which would weaken the impact of an attack (and therefore would protect you)
also it could increase reaction (short range pre-sight ;) ) so that the propability to get higher damage decreases or you could even dodge attacks (could also work that everything is in slow motion for you while you have that power on)

offensive effects
chronal blasts would rip on your molecules because it would send them split seconds back and forth and therefore would cause injuries or disrupt your protective shielding for example :)

just a few thoughts without wanting to dig into it to deep at the moment :)
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

brawlizard
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Re: Control Powers

Postby brawlizard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 am

The kinetics powerset had a lot of the speed up and slow down mechanics in CoX
I like some of the additional "chronomancy" ideas here too

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Avatar PDM
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Avatar PDM » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:28 am

The kinetics powerset had a lot of the speed up and slow down mechanics in CoX
I like some of the additional "chronomancy" ideas here too
yep kinetics is always cool to have - question which just popped up in my mind is if we talk about telekinetics like mental powers or other kind of kinetics like magnetism or gravitational or aeromantic powers :)
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

Sentinel King
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Sentinel King » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:43 am

While Ice (cone slow) and Fire control (targeted-aoe slow/area of denial) had OK slows, my absolute favorite slow came from Earth control. Quicksand had that great targeted-aoe cast that enabled casting from around a corner to mitigate the return alpha-strike while doing double-duty to reduce the DEF of the mobs making them easier to hit for one's teammates. While it didn't slow their attack speed (just movement), Quicksand with a follow-up of Earthquake was my go-to fight-starter for the slow, -DEF (stacking from both Sand and Quake) and -attack frequency from all the mobs flopping around due to Quake.

Almost brings tears to my eyes remembering all those good times....

Blue Yankee
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Re: Control Powers

Postby Blue Yankee » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:45 pm

For each type of debuffing, I would like to see a powerset that focuses on it. Some debuffs are way more powerful that others (stun over immobilize), the debuffs with more impact could have shorter duration, less likely to hit, etc.

Another way to go would be for controlling powersets to focus on single enemy or mobs. I always feel satisfied when I debuff an entire mob, or I stick it to an archvillian who resists almost every debuff.


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