Controllers

magicjtv
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Re: Controllers

Postby magicjtv » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:59 pm

To sum things up, I believe it comes down to the number of proposed pets for a set that should determine what archetype that set belongs to. One pet for a controller is fine but once you put a second in there you should really consider if it should be a controller or a commander set, and if you want three pets in there then it definitely should be a commander set and not a controller set.
That sounds like a good idea.
Combat pets probably won't be ready for game release. Since the dev team is working hard to have Controllers in the game at game release, pets may not be in the sets, or if they are in the sets, they may not be in the game for 6-9 months after release.

I am also of the mind set that pets are not required to have a good controller experience. I think a Controller should control, and like most mez classes in most games, they should get some form of ranged damage.
Well, my main was a Mind/FF and I had level 50s of Mind/Almost-Everything-Else, so I understand the idea that you don't need pets as a controller.

But I also think it's the minority view for Controllers. Most Controllers really loved their pets. If pets aren't in the set at release, I think people would understand. But if they're not in at all, I think most CoH Controllers would feel there's something missing.

My 2 cents.

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JestersGhost
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Re: Controllers

Postby JestersGhost » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:13 pm

But I also think it's the minority view for Controllers. Most Controllers really loved their pets. If pets aren't in the set at release, I think people would understand. But if they're not in at all, I think most CoH Controllers would feel there's something missing.

My 2 cents.
It's an understandable viewpoint, for sure. It's important to note that Ship of Heroes is inspired by, rather than remaking, CoH. An important part of that is having an honest look at what worked and what didn't - and the level thirty-one to thirty-two threshold is an example of what didn't. While some powersets were worse than others, none of them apart from Mind really did it well.

Either:
a) Pets are a basic power of controller sets, from which the damage comes. Since pets aren't in to start with, this might not work very well :P

b) Pets do something other than damage - they act as a secondary CC caster to help you lock down larger groups.

c) Pets aren't in the controller class at all.


For both b) or c) above, the damage needs to come from somewhere. Average, net levelling speed across all powersets and archetypes should be roughly equal. By net levelling speed I mean the time it takes to level taking into account time spent working off xp debt from dying, etc.

Being "safer" simply means you die less, so gain less debt. Riskier strategies may gain you more xp, but if you die repeatedly doing so that should approximately end up cancelling out the faster gain. Obviously skill differences should add some variation here, but for the theoretical "average" player this is how the math should turn out.

Controllers are "safer" for the same reason Tanks are safer - they take less damage, so die less. So yeah, they shouldn't kill things as quickly as archetypes that are at more risk, but they also shouldn't kill things far slower either - you can't extend that safety line back past "doesn't die". Adding yet more safety on top doesn't excuse giving them less damage, because that additional safety gains them nothing but is still costing them something.

Controllers should be balanced on the same edge as everyone else - they can mitigate enough damage to survive, but not so much they're in no danger.
[ quantum sufficit / casual-tempest.net / My Combat Mechanics Thread ]

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gemini
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Re: Controllers

Postby gemini » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:03 am

Jumping in to this VERY VERY late but here's my 2 pennies -

in CoH I (almost exclusively) played Gravity / Kinetics - after 32 when I got the singularity, and because I had kinetics for the damage buffs (Fulcrum shift at 38) I always did well in solo play or as the only controller in the group. I was also already 40+ (or 50, don't quite remember) when the change to pets to only allow 1 active at a time came through, and while I wasn't able to consistently lockdown as much, I was still OK.

I saw consultant mentioning xmas rings, I didn't have that problem but I had extra holds from the Sing.

As far as early game - yes solo play was paiiiiinfully slow. Some sort of ranged damage (it could even be temporary, and go away later, when we get pets) would be welcome, but as others have said it would be nice to have a couple choices other than 'gun' or 'blaster' (I'm not as picky about breaking my immersion to pull out a pistol and blast somebody but milage may vary). I remember I took lift and propel just for solo play and specced out of both of them later (crush i took just for the extra CC mag on big AVs or bosses, it was functionally useless as a single target root otherwise). Oh god I used wormhole for this too - the extra mez from the disorient (also to troll my teammates sometimes ;)

As far as late game damage done - I think low to medium, depending on which powerset you're using is acceptable. I always felt like gravity traded in a lot of damage for stronger control, and other sets with less control (fire) did much more damage.

The late-game pets were absolutely defining to each archetype in regards to damage vs control as well - singularity didn't do much damage, but he was an aggressive hold/immob/throw spamming machine

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Re: Controllers

Postby Consultant » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:39 am

I have to admit that I loved the singularity. It was like have a second controller defending me. Sometimes in a tough mothership raid you would see the healers and one or more gravity controllers huddled in the center of the hero mob, with the singularities hurling Rikti away from the more vulnerable defenders and controllers, creating a safe space.

Now that I think of it, some blasters would huddle with us too. :)

Getting the pet changed everything for me, as a controller, in the late game.

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JestersGhost
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Re: Controllers

Postby JestersGhost » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:00 am

Getting the pet changed everything for me, as a controller, in the late game.
For me, that experience is something that needs to be considered carefully.

I can see the benefit to having powers be something you look forward to, rather than just feeling, "Oh, look, another single-target mez, yay".

However, not feeling like that until level 32 is problematic. That's the kind of stuff that makes people want to farm and power-level.

It's a very tricky balance for sure.
[ quantum sufficit / casual-tempest.net / My Combat Mechanics Thread ]

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Golden Ace
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Re: Controllers

Postby Golden Ace » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:08 am

I have a love-hate relationship with controllers. I loved a good controller.

That being said the majority seem to just spam their powers Willy-nilly Before I could lock down a group.

I found that the majority of controllers didn’t play well with Tanks. I get a Group locked down And suddenly they are scattered to the wind.
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gemini
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Re: Controllers

Postby gemini » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:37 pm

I have a love-hate relationship with controllers. I loved a good controller.

That being said the majority seem to just spam their powers Willy-nilly Before I could lock down a group.

I found that the majority of controllers didn’t play well with Tanks. I get a Group locked down And suddenly they are scattered to the wind.
I promise i was one of the good ones

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Re: Controllers

Postby Avatar PDM » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:57 am

I have a love-hate relationship with controllers. I loved a good controller.

That being said the majority seem to just spam their powers Willy-nilly Before I could lock down a group.

I found that the majority of controllers didn’t play well with Tanks. I get a Group locked down And suddenly they are scattered to the wind.
well, controllers can have a very wide field of impact so to speak, but I believe it is not just a question of being a good player or not but the question of being a team-player or not. And if one is not he should definitely leave his/her finger of that class! But what shall I say, you always have those players who get others into trouble because they do not communicate well
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indigowulf
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Re: Controllers

Postby indigowulf » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:52 pm

Pyrion, I think I get it. So if controllers get an option in character creation to replace the pistol with an "arcane object" that hits enemies with a low/medium damage power, and costs no energy, and is also unique to the controller class, would that meet your needs?
I liked CoH way of doing it, your "gun" power was changed based on your origin. Magic had a charm, mutants had mutagen, etc. Maybe give us a few options on our "gun" power that all do basically the same thing, but the options let us keep in line with our story and RP.


While controllers are my favorite class, I don't think SoH version needs to have pets. Classes that are meant to be support *should* be harder to solo until they get some levels under their belt, and should never be able to solo as well as blasters/scrappers. As long as achievements are account wide once earned, why NOT have some classes better at certain things? A controller, defender, or tank never has trouble getting a team invite or even TF invite, while the dps have to compete for the spots, that's your trade off for being better at soloing.

When controllers came out, they were the only class that had pets. After MM came out, it felt almost redundant. It would be neat if commanders had the monopoly on pets and controllers were more "controll-centric" Make the classes more unique. I think people would really enjoy it once they got used to the fact that this isn't a mirror copy of CoH
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Golden Ace
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Re: Controllers

Postby Golden Ace » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:55 pm

I concur. I don’t think pets should be Anywhere but with commanders.

Let’s make it a clear distinction between the classes
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gemini
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Re: Controllers

Postby gemini » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:40 pm

I concur. I don’t think pets should be Anywhere but with commanders.

Let’s make it a clear distinction between the classes
I could go either way on this, as long as there is some kind of interesting, relevant capstone if it's not pets.

Controller pets were always the 'fire and forget' in that you summoned them and they did their ONE thing (spam abilities as a singularity, or murder things as fire monkies) and follow you around, where commanders had a variety of pets for different situations and you had a great deal of control (if you were clever).

They felt different enough to me.

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Re: Controllers

Postby Consultant » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:58 am

My most memorable controller was a gravity/ radiation character named Gravity Gibbs (NCIS was hot back then).

In some ways, the combination of control and radiation for debuff was awesome for team play. With just a smidge more damage this character would have been fine in solo play. I overcame weakness in solo play by using St. Louis Slugger and Pistol.

So I can see the argument against pets. But singularity was great on raids and TFs. Remember those three things that used to circle over Romulus' head in the ITF? The funniest ITF I ever did was one with three gravity controllers. We all threw our singularities at those things, and all six of them kind of paused, and then began to destroy each other. Romulus was unprotected. That was a quick one!

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gemini
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Re: Controllers

Postby gemini » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:23 am

My most memorable controller was a gravity/ radiation character named Gravity Gibbs (NCIS was hot back then).

In some ways, the combination of control and radiation for debuff was awesome for team play. With just a smidge more damage this character would have been fine in solo play. I overcame weakness in solo play by using St. Louis Slugger and Pistol.

So I can see the argument against pets. But singularity was great on raids and TFs. Remember those three things that used to circle over Romulus' head in the ITF? The funniest ITF I ever did was one with three gravity controllers. We all threw our singularities at those things, and all six of them kind of paused, and then began to destroy each other. Romulus was unprotected. That was a quick one!
I'm seeing a theme. Certain pets that added control and utility were reasonably well liked and fondly remembered as a part of the class.

Other pets that just added damage were take it or leave it.

Singularity and fire monkeys are the extreme examples of each. Other pets were more balanced

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JestersGhost
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Re: Controllers

Postby JestersGhost » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:42 pm

Good catch. I mentioned above having pets that simply act as a "secondary" control caster, rather than a damage source. I think the AI on that might be simpler too, having only one task. But there are other ways of achieving the same feel without having pets. I'd be happy with out pets on controllers for sure.
[ quantum sufficit / casual-tempest.net / My Combat Mechanics Thread ]

SwitchFade
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Re: Controllers

Postby SwitchFade » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:52 pm

I had many controllers.

Earth storm, no pet needed, amazing hard and soft control.

Fire kin, pets were great, it was my farming toon, so much fun.

Grav rad, good mix, amazing control pet.

Illusion forcefield, tons of pets, used them wisely, never needed them all the time.

The bottom line is, some sets should have pets, some should not; some should be high damage, some should not. Mix it up, and no, they should not come early. CoH progressed just fine, and controllers should not be a strict solo class, they're controllers. They're meant for teams early on, just like tanks kill slow.

I loved the way they played.


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