Controllers

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Golden Ace
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Controllers

Postby Golden Ace » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:42 am

Will Controllers have a pet class? or will that be for a totally different archetype like Masterminds?
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GladDog
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Re: Controllers

Postby GladDog » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:05 am

Controllers will have pets, but not at first. Two reasons;

1 - They still have to implement the code for pets, and that will be demanding. They need to get the game out and making money before they will be able to have the resources to make viable GOOD pets. It is likely that controllers won't get pets until Commanders (masterminds) are in the game.

2 - The level cap is going to start low, too low to have controller pets. The highest level we would possibly see at release is 30, and don't count on that. They have promised us a level cap of 20, and I am hopeful we may have a cap of 25 at release.
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Dying Breath
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Re: Controllers

Postby Dying Breath » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:50 am

One thing that I feel CoH got wrong with respect to Controllers was the pets. Pets were absolutely game-changing and, in my mind, signature powers for almost every control set. Pets represented the bulk controller damage for most players, and were essential for solo play. The problem as I saw it, was that they came too late in the game. No other AT waited close to half of their leveling time to get their signature power, or to gain the ability to solo. Armor set god-modes, and blaster nukes were good, but highly situational and completely skippable. I found many controller sets to be a terrible slog through the first 31 levels, and then relatively breezy afterward - I think my earth/storm controller was the only character I seriously considered getting PL'ed.

If controllers *have* to have pets (and I'm still not sold that they do, even though I am the minority) then perhaps they could be moved earlier in the power list to even out the leveling curve.

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Re: Controllers

Postby Consultant » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:21 am

Dying Breath, I feel your pain. I think I had at least eight incarnate controllers on three SOH servers. My favorite combo was gravity/radiation. Once you got the singularity, everything changed for the better. My personal strategy in COH with controllers was to craft St Louis Slugger and Pistol in large numbers, and to also get help from my friends to get Shivans and Warburg nukes on every controller. I found and hoarded the XMAS snowmen as well. Temp powers were key. It was still tough to level them solo after about level 10.

We're making a couple of changes to our control class which we think will improve playability at the early levels. First every character can have a pistol, which is a low/medium ranged damage power that takes no energy (it can be fired even if the character can fire no other power). So controllers won't need to brawl enemies to death at level 12.

Also, controllers are getting a couple of powers that actually do low and medium damage. So they will be soloable. And for every character in SoH, craftable temp powers are a big advantage. Remember at XMAS, when everyone could get the Rings hold power? Adding that one extra hold to a controller's attack chain of other holds and immobs made a big difference in my view, to playability against difficult enemies for a controller. So we ask ourselves, why should that fun only be had at XMAS?

Of course, if you want to lay out DPS, controllers will always be the wrong choice. Controllers are a skill class, meant to fill a complex role on a team. But that doesn't mean that they can't be fun to play solo too. Speed will come from a damage class. But controllers will be very useful against very tough enemies, and will speed up the missions for DPS players. At least, that's the plan.

Pyrion
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Re: Controllers

Postby Pyrion » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:04 pm

This is the place where i need to stress that needing a gun for my controller is absolutely class breaking for me, at least for many hero ideas. So i am a psi master like Xavier. I need to arrest some thugs, no problem... i just keep them still with my control powers and then i *SHOOT* them? No way!

Please consider the CoH-Solution. Double damage of control powers if the target is already controlled. That way i can just use my control powers to level. The idea of needing a *GUN* is absolutely horrifying for me. Maybe with the exception of playing a controller that uses gadgets... in that context it might be ok.

What i am referencing here is role playing. That has always been a big part of CoH for me. Light hearted over the top role playing.

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Re: Controllers

Postby Consultant » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:12 pm

You don't need to use the gun. Play without it. It may be slow to level. Let me just say, we are all reacting to the simple fact that COH got controller damage wrong. The double damage if controlled, which was in COH, was frankly inadequate. We don't have an alternative of adding the double damage feature and thinking that this is enough...although we'll likely add it anyway. We're discussing what else we can do because we already know that this is not enough.

We're open to suggestions. But we won't be making controllers into beasts of damage from their control powers. That is not in the cards. What do people want?

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Golden Ace
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Re: Controllers

Postby Golden Ace » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:13 pm

Please consider the CoH-Solution. Double damage of control powers if the target is already controlled. That way i can just use my control powers to level. The idea of needing a *GUN* is absolutely horrifying for me. Maybe with the exception of playing a controller that uses gadgets... in that context it might be ok.

What i am referencing here is role playing. That has always been a big part of CoH for me. Light hearted over the top role playing.
Thank you for bringing that up. I had forgotten that.
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Golden Ace
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Re: Controllers

Postby Golden Ace » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:15 pm

You don't need to use the gun. Play without it. It may be slow to level. Let me just say, we are all reacting to the simple fact that COH got controller damage wrong. The double damage if controlled, which was in COH, was frankly inadequate. We don't have an alternative of adding the double damage feature and thinking that this is enough...although we'll likely add it anyway. We're discussing what else we can do because we already know that this is not enough.

We're open to suggestions. But we won't be making controllers into beasts of damage from their control powers. That is not in the cards. What do people want?
instead of a gun, how about a choice of another object? crystal ball? eye of agamotto etc.
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GladDog
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Re: Controllers

Postby GladDog » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:13 pm

Another possibility is to include two or three damage powers a la Dominators in the primary set. Maybe have a mid range mid damage single target attack at level 1, a short range low damage cone attack at level 16 or so, and a targeted mid level damage AoE attack at 27ish. Put them on long timers if needed. I think that a couple of decent damage attacks would be very good for the class, especially if it may be two patches after release before they get pets.
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Nephthys
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Re: Controllers

Postby Nephthys » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:24 pm

Or give them charms. let me make my enemies do my damaging for me. They are controllers after all, damage should come from, well, controlling. :)

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Eulb
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Re: Controllers

Postby Eulb » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:00 am

Nephthys your saying ...
Or give them charms. let me make my enemies do my damaging for me. They are controllers after all, damage should come from, well, controlling. :)
A charm to make an enemies to my bidding and attack there fellow Bad-ees is a grate power ...

even more ... that power or charm can last longer and longer as you lvl up... so that charmed Bad-ee is the controller's pet ... hee hee and shall follow you around until the charm wares off

That ... in my opinion ... is the Controllers basic power
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Pyrion
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Re: Controllers

Postby Pyrion » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:33 am

I totally get it that controllers should not be a great DPS class. that would be OP. In CoH the single target roots and holds had a small to medium damage component that was enough for doing missions when combined with the double damage mechanic. Controllers lacked good AoE damage but some builds had very decent single target damage (gravity was fun with throwing objects). Some famous builds dealt great damage with pets, but i think that was already a bit too much (fire and illusion). And pets seem to come later anyways.

If controller damage has to come from powers not in the controller main set (which i don't really understand) then please give us other options than guns. I think controllers should get decent single target damage powers and lack in AoE. So the controller style to run a mission would be slow but safe... whereas a ranged DPS class would need to kill all stuff fast before getting overwhelmed.

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Re: Controllers

Postby Consultant » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:10 am

Pyrion, I think I get it. So if controllers get an option in character creation to replace the pistol with an "arcane object" that hits enemies with a low/medium damage power, and costs no energy, and is also unique to the controller class, would that meet your needs?

Right now, my first thought is that this could be some sort of object that is magically attuned solely to controllers (the in-game story). What was that thing the wizards had to have on their hand to use their powers in Dr. Strange? A sling-something? Maybe we can posit a device that adds one power to any controller, by dint of magic or cybernetics or something. Doesn't work for other people -- they need a pistol.

Make it optional so that if someone has a design in mind for a pistol-toting controller, they can still make their character.

If we go this route, we have a simple solution. The device can have a different FX of course. And maybe a pistol-like casting animation, but a different impact animation, so it is clear that it is doing something that is definitely not a bullet impact. Hmmm, we'll have to think about that. I don't want to commit to making a different impact animation for every possible controller powerset. But it would not be firing bullets at people.

Pyrion
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Re: Controllers

Postby Pyrion » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 am

Pyrion, I think I get it. So if controllers get an option in character creation to replace the pistol with an "arcane object" that hits enemies with a low/medium damage power, and costs no energy, and is also unique to the controller class, would that meet your needs?
My priority would still be damage in the primary power set. That way it stays in theme for that controller. We will (hopefully) get a diversity of power sets (i understand that that will be very limited at the start, but later on). And while the "crystal ball energy attack" would be great for my dark magic controller it wouldn't really fit the gravity or ice controller. Why not give decent damage just to single target controls? Not the same amount that DPS classes get, but on a defender level. That way i can stay in theme, no matter what. I didn't yet hear the reasoning why that is somehow a bad thing, but of course you might have very valid reasons.

If you absolutely can not give damage to control powers (maybe a limitation of your engine implementation?) then i would still prefer just one or two plain damage powers inside the power set (like gravity had). If that's not possible, yea, then a customizable "gun" would be the third best option so that i can at least make it look like being consistent.

Maybe it's just me and others don't have a problem with gun wielding, in that case just ignore all that :)

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JestersGhost
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Re: Controllers

Postby JestersGhost » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:26 pm

Right now, my first thought is that this could be some sort of object that is magically attuned solely to controllers (the in-game story). What was that thing the wizards had to have on their hand to use their powers in Dr. Strange? A sling-something? Maybe we can posit a device that adds one power to any controller, by dint of magic or cybernetics or something. Doesn't work for other people -- they need a pistol.
This complaint isn't a controller only problem though - many of my characters would never use a gun. If you're going to have a ranged version of brawl, it needs to be done as either a) something generic that would fit most backgrounds (a small energy bolt from a hand could be coming from a hand-held device, intrinsic powers, whatever, for example) or b) be customisable so we can pick from at least a couple of different animations for what suits the character.

The latter is my preference, but I understand it's more work, so a) might have to suffice for release. I do understand a zero-energy back-up attack as an excellent anti-frustration feature, but it's got to be completely generic to work, and a pistol just isn't.

---

Regarding controllers - why can't they do damage? I discussed this briefly in my mechanics thread (see my sig) - the damage (well, technically the time they take to defeat an enemy, which is directly tied to damage) depends really on how long the controls last, and how many targets they hit.

Crowd-control is just another form of defense - instead of avoiding or resisting the damage, you prevent the enemy from attacking. The end result is the same - damage isn't done to you.

Damage output should be proportional to the damage prevented - tanks get low damage because they have high-defense. Controllers did pitiful damage in CoH because they almost had 100% damage prevention. The shorter the controls, or the fewer targets they affect, the higher the damage. Ideally that could be a trade-off made via the Augment system - slot damage, get a high DPS but low control duration. Slot duration, do less damage. Slot range, do less damage but control more enemies. That depends a lot on the amount augments actually boost powers by. Which is an interesting enough topic I'll make it my next post in my mechanics thread I think...


Anyway, I have no problem with controllers doing DPS, as long as the controls are corresponding shorter. Which I think is a better gameplay system anyway, as you don't have the "City of Statues" issue where controllers just spent their time hitting unmoving enemies until they fell over, and would be completely unworkable for PvP anyway (which should be being considered right now, as it's fundamental to getting PvE balance right too).
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