A Request for Energy Power Sets!

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Solarverse
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A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Solarverse » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:32 pm

In City of Heroes, Energy (Next to human form Peace Bringers) was my favorite power set. Sadly, Energy was ALWAYS lacking in comparison to other ranged power sets. It never got the buff it needed, so it always trailed behind other sets. Please...give Energy some love with this game? Don't make it OP...obviously that would just end up nerfed if it were, but please keep it desirable. I don't want to create an Energy Ranged character just to find it difficult to join Task Forces due to the powers lacking ability to keep up. Also, for the love of whomever you deem holy...no knock backs! Knock downs are great, even desired...but everybody hates knock backs. Thanks! :D

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Blaze Rocker » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:49 am

In City of Heroes, Energy (Next to human form Peace Bringers) was my favorite power set. Sadly, Energy was ALWAYS lacking in comparison to other ranged power sets. It never got the buff it needed, so it always trailed behind other sets. Please...give Energy some love with this game? Don't make it OP...obviously that would just end up nerfed if it were, but please keep it desirable. I don't want to create an Energy Ranged character just to find it difficult to join Task Forces due to the powers lacking ability to keep up. Also, for the love of whomever you deem holy...no knock backs! Knock downs are great, even desired...but everybody hates knock backs. Thanks! :D
Not everyone hated the knockback effects of Energy Blast as you did. Many people loved hurling foes all over the place but hated it when their teammates yelled at them to "knock it off". I understand the dilemma though and while I was working for that farce of a game project 'Heroes and Villains' I built a version of Energy Blast that gave the player the ability to tone-down the knockback effects on-the-fly. Hopefully in the coming weeks I will be able to present the power set here on the forum and have the opportunity to get the developers' opinions on its viability for acceptance into SoH.
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Solarverse
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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Solarverse » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:09 pm

In City of Heroes, Energy (Next to human form Peace Bringers) was my favorite power set. Sadly, Energy was ALWAYS lacking in comparison to other ranged power sets. It never got the buff it needed, so it always trailed behind other sets. Please...give Energy some love with this game? Don't make it OP...obviously that would just end up nerfed if it were, but please keep it desirable. I don't want to create an Energy Ranged character just to find it difficult to join Task Forces due to the powers lacking ability to keep up. Also, for the love of whomever you deem holy...no knock backs! Knock downs are great, even desired...but everybody hates knock backs. Thanks! :D
Not everyone hated the knockback effects of Energy Blast as you did. Many people loved hurling foes all over the place but hated it when their teammates yelled at them to "knock it off". I understand the dilemma though and while I was working for that farce of a game project 'Heroes and Villains' I built a version of Energy Blast that gave the player the ability to tone-down the knockback effects on-the-fly. Hopefully in the coming weeks I will be able to present the power set here on the forum and have the opportunity to get the developers' opinions on its viability for acceptance into SoH.
I could most certainly go for that. The problem with Knock Back is that Tanks would go through all the trouble to group the NPCs together, then some Energy Blaster would come along and scatter the mobs all over God's creation...which completely defeated the point of the Tank's job.

Some players, although far and few in between, would take the time to carefully set up their attacks so that they would knock back against a wall or in a corner. However, the problem with that, is the time taken to set the power up, was time wasted in DPS. It was a catch 22 and made Energy Blasters undesirable.

Your idea would work nicely though, having the ability to change the Knock Backs to a Knock Down and vice versa on the fly, would be extremely nice. Just as long as it is not done with a Charged Ability....I for one do not want another Champions Online, where half of their abilities are Charged. Makes too many powers the exact same.

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Eulb » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:55 am

Put me down as .... I LOVE KNOCK BACK ... kept it in and make it more powerful
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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Blaze Rocker » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:21 am

I totally understand the Love <> Hate opinions. When examining the original set in order to build my own version I always remembered how satisfying it was to hurl a group of foes against the interior wall of an office building. It was also a necessary strategy at times when I was teaming because I didn't want to displace a herd/group too far from the tanks and scrappers or from the reach of controllers with mass Hold and Immobilize powers. Of course there were also other times when things were going horribly wrong and you had to strategically utilize that knockback in an effort to keep enemies away from both yourself and all the squishies who were in danger of having a really bad day.

"If knock effects are about all the crowd control abilities you have left on the team then you need to be able to use them to their fullest effect during retreat or when attempting to regain control of a battle."

I'm currently re-examining my Energy sets and should be able to post something within a few days. Hopefully they will meet with community approval.
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Solarverse
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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Solarverse » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:58 am

I totally understand the Love <> Hate opinions. When examining the original set in order to build my own version I always remembered how satisfying it was to hurl a group of foes against the interior wall of an office building. It was also a necessary strategy at times when I was teaming because I didn't want to displace a herd/group too far from the tanks and scrappers or from the reach of controllers with mass Hold and Immobilize powers. Of course there were also other times when things were going horribly wrong and you had to strategically utilize that knockback in an effort to keep enemies away from both yourself and all the squishies who were in danger of having a really bad day.

"If knock effects are about all the crowd control abilities you have left on the team then you need to be able to use them to their fullest effect during retreat or when attempting to regain control of a battle."

I'm currently re-examining my Energy sets and should be able to post something within a few days. Hopefully they will meet with community approval.
Good Energy Blasters also knew how to wait for the Controllers to Immobilize the enemies before they unleashed their Wave of Knock Back Destruction. I can tell by reading your play-style, that you were one of the few good ones. Sadly though, let's face it, good Energy Blasters were far and few in between. Explaining to most of the new players how to properly use their Knock Back would fall on hostile ears, lol. "You're not the boss-o-me, you can't tell me what to do!" type nonsense. So most of the time, I said nothing while watching the Tanks rage at them. If the player seemed willing to learn, then I would send them tells giving them knock back tips and every mechanic in game that affects Knock Back. :)

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Consultant » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:30 am

Right now we are thinking about a knock-back system in which players could click a box and convert their knock-back to knock down. Those who want KB can have it, especially when they play solo.

But on teams we are thinking of giving the other players to ability to convert knock-back to knock-down for the entire team. This means the "you're not the boss of me" guys would learn quickly that teams have a democracy-in-action flavor. This could be something that teams advertise when forming, as well.

In our view, this addresses the primary objection -- players who want that knock-back feel should get it, but be willing to give it up temporarily if it is really messing with the team. In other words, they can also have knock-back when the solo, or when they show that they are skilled at using it in a group setting.

Does someone want to tell us why this might be a bad plan?

We are interested in hearing objections.

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Solarverse » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:13 pm

Right now we are thinking about a knock-back system in which players could click a box and convert their knock-back to knock down. Those who want KB can have it, especially when they play solo.

But on teams we are thinking of giving the other players to ability to convert knock-back to knock-down for the entire team. This means the "you're not the boss of me" guys would learn quickly that teams have a democracy-in-action flavor. This could be something that teams advertise when forming, as well.

In our view, this addresses the primary objection -- players who want that knock-back feel should get it, but be willing to give it up temporarily if it is really messing with the team. In other words, they can also have knock-back when the solo, or when they show that they are skilled at using it in a group setting.

Does someone want to tell us why this might be a bad plan?

We are interested in hearing objections.
That is a brilliant QoL Mechanic. For an example, if I get on a PuG team and notice they have the option for Knock Back turned off, I can simply ask them politely to turn it on, and let them know that I can use the mechanic properly and won't interfere with the Tank's ability to keep mobs stacked on the Tank. Most people would probably turn it on with no issues. I can only see them turning it back off if another player comes in and starts scattering mobs with their Knock Back. I think it is a VERY fair option to have on a team.

Concerning mechanics of Knock Back...in CoH, if a Troller placed an Immobilization on a Mob, It canceled out Knock Downs, and turned Knock Backs in to Knock Downs. Mathmatically, it would look something like this. Knock Back = 10 / Knock Down = 5. Immobilize = -5. Knock Back - Immobilize = Knock Down.

So in essence, you could use your Knock Back on them, and the strength of the Immobilize turned that KB in to a Knock Down instead. However, Immobilizations (Not all of them, only the strength of a Trollers Immobilization. I recall a Blaster's Immobilize would have only equated to a 3, rather than a Troller's 5. Therefore the Blaster's version of an Immobilize would only be enough to hold them still, but not enough to negate the KB or KD.) would negate the Knock Downs of a Tanks Foot Stomp. Foot Stomp was used as a Damage Mitigation...and if the Mobs did not fall to the ground, then they were still unleashing their attacks, thus defeating the purpose of the Tanks damage mitigation.

My question is this...will you guys look in to that and see if we can figure out a way so that Knock Downs still work properly with Immobilizations, while also preventing Knock Backs and turning those Knock Backs in to Knock Downs? Or is that a mechanic that would be difficult to program?

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Blaze Rocker » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:44 pm

I would tend to disagree when it comes to allowing a teamleader, or team majority, total control over such a mechanic. This takes the control completely out of the hands of the player and can put them at a disadvantage when that knockback is actually needed for crowd control purposes.

A foe that is knocked back is still knocked down whereas knockback also moves the target farther from the player and keeps them from doing melee damage just a bit longer as they then have to close the distance between them. Knockback powers can also be used strategically to hurl foes off of cliffs, bridges, rooftops and balconies. A foe that falls not only takes damage from the fall they can be forced out of visual range and must then take time moving to where they can then target the player once again. Foes that can't be knocked out of visual range will immediately be able to target and attack with ranged abilities once they recover from knockdown effects.

A player use to strategically utilizing their knockback effects to their fullest would be forced to play by team rules and has to develop all new strategies on-the-fly and this can leave them at a disadvantage. Even if they can successfully play with a fully functional team what happens when things go wrong and teammates go down? If the player suddenly NEEDS that knockback in order to use it strategically to defend their remaining teammates and themself from a beatdown what will they do if they can't have it? If the player resorts to leaving a team in order to get it back to save themself from XP debt, will they also be kicked from interior missions? Are you willing to force a player to accept death and debt in order to stay on a team just because the team doesn't want knockback?

I really don't think this is a good idea. I may abide by it if that's what you want, but I don't like it because of the freedom it takes away from the player. I believe that versatile powers, practiced strategy, player education and proper team communication is a better solution to the issue. People are always looking for a "one size fits all" solution to every problem because it's easy. Such a solution may be easy but it most certainly is NOT always best for every situation or every person.


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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby GladDog » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:53 pm

I concur. If the team demands the player do something he does not want to do, then the player has the option to quit the team, and the team has the option to kick the player. I think that even with the problems and advantages of KB/ KD, that the choice should still be left to the player.
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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Consultant » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:10 am

Am I hearing an argument that KB is superior to KD because an enemy that is knocked back is also always knocked down, but an enemy that is knocked down is only knocked down, and therefore the enemy is unable to resume attacking for a longer time? It seems there is also and assumption that KB gives two effects occurring and "controls" enemies longer based on the distance they have been moved, assuming the enemy is melee?

These assumptions might not be met. KB does not have to include KD, and the time that a melee enemy is out of action could be greater, the same, or less when comparing KB to KD.

The real issue is this: when a player is on a team and is knocking back enemies, thinking he is effectively helping the rest of the team to complete a fight, and the team vocally disagrees, who decides whether KB should be converted to KD?

In an ideal situation, even if the player with KB thinks he is using the power well, if his teammates think it is harmful to them, he should stop. Perhaps some polite discussion should occur, so the team members can all get onto the same page. But to continue using KB, in the face of vocal opposition from the team, is hard to distinguish from griefing. It is kind of like when players in COH would ask not to get speed boost. If you ask your teammate not to boost you, and he keeps doing it anyway, that's pretty rude.

Isn't it incumbent on players who design a character with KB powers to anticipate that others might not want those powers used in team fights? And if there is no difference in the crowd control element between KB and KD, it seems kind of odd to insist on using a power that is easily convertible, and is annoying your teammates.

What am I missing?

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Country Strong » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:40 am



What am I missing?
I can see both ways, but as far as what are you missing, you'd be giving control over my toon and the way I designed it to someone else and allowing them to control my game play. It's easy enough that if someone on a team isn't being a team player just kick them. If I dont like what someone else on a team is doing and they won't stop, I can choose to leave. I don't agree with giving my game play choice to someone else.

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Solarverse » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:23 pm

In this case, it would seem the more simple solution is to give the player the ability to turn his or her own KB off at will. After all, a master of Energy Powers should have control over how powerful the after affects of their powers are, right? So since we can't really come to an agreement on this, I guess the old style method of dealing with people who misuse KB will have to be the same...kick them from the team. I just really hate kicking players if something can be done to prevent things like this.

At least in this way, the players on the team can ask the Energy Player to turn off his/her KB (In situations that the player using the KB is going against the grain of the Tank's ability to stack mobs on him/her) which gives them the option to do it on their own free will. What those players chooses to do, is completely his or her choice. If the team does not agree with his or her choice, they can always /kick.

Just to me, it seems like giving the team leader control over that KB function would have been the more humane choice, but I understand how the players feel when they say they would rather have the choice themselves.

Trust me, I get it...I know exactly how to make KB work for teams and not against them, and even I was willing to give the team captain the power to turn it on or off...I honestly felt like it would have been the lesser of the two evils. However, it is clear that doing this will end up stirring up way too much controversy. There is no need to take this further in this case. I say give the individual player the option, if teams don't like it, they can always kick. Other than the occasional player coming to the forums and raging about being kicked for refusing to turn it off, I can't see anything worse than that coming out of this.

However, technically, the only players that will be finding themselves kicked from teams, will be the players who improperly use the KB...so that should even out very nicely...we hope?

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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby Eulb » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:54 pm

Thank you Solarverse when you said ...
In this case, it would seem the more simple solution is to give the player the ability to turn his or her own KB off at will. ...

...At least in this way, the players on the team can ask the Energy Player to turn off his/her KB ...
This makes me excited that other peeps do understand how ... US knock back lovers Play... and can sympathies ... i would love to be able to turn off the knock-back and make it a knock-down at will so i wont be told not to use that power ...
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Re: A Request for Energy Power Sets!

Postby JestersGhost » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:15 pm

If you're in a team, the what's best is what's best for the team. An individual's rights are not greater than the rights of all the other team members. The whole point of playing in a team is that you no longer do just what you want, but what's best for the whole team. So yeah, it's entirely fair to me that the team gets to say whether the knock is down or back.
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