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Re: PvP

Postby brawlizard » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:21 am

It really is interesting just how divisive the topic of PVP is.
Those that like it think those that don't are crybabies, and those that don't like it think those that do are bullies.

It's like democrats and republicans, lol

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Re: PvP

Postby Melanieshaman » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:04 pm

I don't know a ton about this game, I just discovered it today. So i am unsure of how things on each level will work other than i think i heard in a vid of a hostile zone or something. Why not make that area open pvp? Or something similar.

WAR's (Warhammer Online) had a great pvp system, it was probably the single best part of the game. Have arenas or instanced battleground style play...AND... if each level is large enough for it, have PvP "lakes", or clearly defined areas for pvp in each level. Goal oriented and objective based areas for pvp. Possibly even a boost mechanic to get every character at least within a certain level of power so you don't have to be capped to pvp. Even the notoriously stubborn devs for WoW did this... years into the game, but they did.

I love to be able to run missions and develop a story for my character, but some times i like to jump into some pvp and test my ability against other players.

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Re: PvP

Postby Wing Leader » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:08 pm

PvP is great if the experience maintains the feel of the genre. Unfortunately that is rarely the case. Battlegrounds just feel like sporting events. Capture the flag? Really? Horde and Alliance champions are going to be playing Capture the Flag with each other? I'm sorry but that's absurd, and it is a really lame way to shove PvP into the game world.

The only kind of PvP that makes any sense to me in an RPG world is open world PvP. But that won't feel right unless the kind of conflict that PvP makes possible feels like superheroes and supervillains duking it out as in the comics/movies. I tried CoX PvP many times, and I never stepped into a PvP zone and got the feeling I was taking part in a comic-book-inspired battle with supervillains.

I fall into the camp that hates PvP, but only because nobody has ever implemented it in a way that makes it feel right for the superhero genre. Supervillains aren't supposed to act like schoolyard bullies (as most PvPers do), they are supposed to act like evil masterminds plotting to take over the world. If a PvP system can't channel the conflict in that direction, then it has failed to serve its most fundamental purpose (as I view it anyway).

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Re: PvP

Postby Styrj » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:36 pm

I personally am a PVE'er, but, in regards to PVP, I think Wing Leader puts it in pretty good perspective.
:D If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :D

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Re: PvP

Postby Blue Djinn » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:54 pm

I personally am a PVE'er, but, in regards to PVP, I think Wing Leader puts it in pretty good perspective.

Its one of those things that rarely make the whole populace happy. One exploit can lead to a nerf, and that can be infuriating for both sides of the isle. Coming from the old school days of M59 PKKers ,they better have plenty of character slots, so we can build spec out pvp and pve hard core characters... otherwise its a wash.

and I am still a fan of the flag. Better yet, if you have the flag, just make them invisible to pvpers. Then it can be open world and nobody has to care....

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Re: PvP

Postby MrFreedom » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:59 pm

I am a rare person who both loves PVP and PVE.
From Eve, SwtoR, wow, CoH, LoL Dota 2 to Battlefield and older CoDs.

In saying this. What drives me away from games - PVP balance. More specifically, pvp balance inside an "Instant pvp zone" and World PVP. I can't remember who said it earlier in this post I am sorry, but they hit the nail on the head.
Nerfing something pve wise because of PVP is wrong. World of Warcraft tried this with legion balancing outside of pvp instances but it blew up world pvp. World pvp is so imbalanced it ruins the pvp experience for me. And their word on it was, sorry, deal with it. This causes huge knee jerk nerfs messing up both pvp and pve. One more than the other normally.

Now in saying that, (i like that phrase btw) How does one keep everyone happy?

Like the guy said, regen scrappers were pretty much unkillable 1v1, they were so fun to play. So they nerfed regen and made them very bad PvE wise.

It's almost impossible to keep everyone happy. Because pvp does influence pve and other way around. One thing that could be consider is having pvp talents or spells outside of the normal pve area. This can help a little bit, giving pvpers extra "debuffs or windows of strong dps" to help counter them regen scrappers that were almost impossible to kill.

This can cause an over powered pvp ability to become normalized even if its for a 30 second window. This will be up to you Devs on how you want to handle it. All I am saying, is make "instants pvp" and world PVP the same balance.

How do you put this into lore to have extra talents and powers. well adrenaline can be one way. When two heroes or a hero and a villain fight, their unobtainium(spelling sorry) power combine unleashing new powers.

Second comment on this, unless the release Villain classes, why on earth would a ship of superheroes fight each other? This lore wise would never make sense. Because if i was fighting for resources, and someone swooped in and knocked me out and took it. I wouldn't just sit there back at the ship because it's our home. I would attack them. - Never trust them to team up again. SO until Villains are released - instant pvp is what I would like to see. Heroes battle each other for training purposes. VR rooms like the x-men danger room.

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Re: PvP

Postby Turtlesandwich » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:42 am

Why not have the dedicated pvp zones and allow the pvp to develop naturally, but focus on pve balance.

If the majority of players are not going to participate and if it is a choice to enter then let the pvp'ers develop how they want. There will always be characters that won't fare well in pvp, an emp defender for instance, would be hunted down as soon as they entered.

One of the attractions of pvp was something to do with your lvl50's. Whats wrong with trying to find the ultimate pvp toon? Most toons had a weak point and you would assess the situation and would bring the best toon to counter that threat.

Find a:
Tank and you would bring a flying blaster
Stalker and you bring a toon with force bubble
Scrapper and you would bring a dominator.

Due to the vast amount of powers and buffs the trick was to maximise a certain set of stats be it attack or defence. I had just as much fun with maxed defence toon as with my offensive toons.
There will be dominant toon types, but i would like to try and find a class that was not played and cause a surprise.

The pvp play styles also differed form region to region. I remember watching a vid with a EU player on a US server in a 1v1 battle being told to stop jumping so he could be hit them.

As long as pve is the focus for balance it would not affect the majority of players.
Last edited by Turtlesandwich on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PvP

Postby Consultant » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:53 am

We have some cool plans for PVP which are a bit different than in most games. But we are a small team and making any MMO is a challenge, even for big teams, So we are launching as a PVE game and adding PVP later.

Threads like this one are helpful. We get ideas form you guys. We most definitely do not feel that we need to be in step with what other games do for their PVP. We want to shake things up a bit -- or more properly, allow you guys to shake things up a bit and do some new things.

One example is this -- we'd like to implement a system of challenges and matches in which players could change the rules of a PVP match by mutual consent. Want to do a 2X2 match with full energy all of the time? If everyone agrees, then go to it. Want to do it again, but this time with a timer on the match? Why not, if that makes players happy? Want to fight it out and declare victory in a 5X5 match when any two teammates on a team are defeated? Sure.

Allowing players to change the rules, test out scenarios, and do what they want to do, seems like it might be fun, at least to us.

So keep those ideas coming. But don't hold your breath.

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Re: PvP

Postby Golden Ace » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:36 am

my biggest thing I have against PvP is an old statesmant (spelling on purpose) "PvP will not effect PvE" that and playing retoggle the tank for years wasn't fun. it turned me off on PvP for good.
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Re: PvP

Postby Eulb » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:19 pm

I'll go for PVP in the regulator environment but just between consenting toon's ,
It's very entertaining to watch two peeps go at each other where I'm seating and enjoying the ambiance of the environment ...
I could even go for teams against teams in the city in full view of all player , and hopefully the PVP'ers will en-train the bad-ees while fighting just to through a wrench into the reduction gears...
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Re: PvP

Postby Harpospoke » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:49 pm

The fundamental flaw in PvP stems from the way we think about PvP, which is stuck in the gameplay paradigms of ten years ago.

The reason many people hate open-world PvP is because they don't like the prospect of getting attacked for no reason, or being ambushed without any narrative motive, etc. This sort of thing is a holdover from fantasy-based MMORPGs in which that sort of behavior was acceptable, even from a lore perspective.

But you know what? That is not lore appropriate for the superhero genre. Sure, villains will be villains, but nobody wants to be assaulted by villains without it being part of a story. Their story. This runs counter to the notion of open, unmoderated PvP where anyone can attack anyone for any reason. In the hands of less mature players, this devolves into video game combat with no genre flavor whatsoever, and just becomes a contest of game mechanics-ship. This might be fun for some, but not for most, and it is certainly not going to help the game feel like its source material (superheroes).

Another thing many folks don't like about PvP is the steep increase in difficulty simply because the opponent is another player rather than the computer A.I. This can only be solved by a combination of better PvE A.I. (to smooth out the discrepancy in the play experience between the two), and an improved combat model that culls out mechanics-based exploits that humans are all too good at finding and taking advantage of if you make them available.
The bolded part was something I felt in CoX. As the developers of SoH bring up, there was a sense of community and helpfulness in CoX that really appealed to me. The PvP part of CoX felt like the opposite of that. Suddenly I was supposed to be trying to hurt other players and lessen their fun.

My few encounters with PvP went something like this: I enter the zone and am attacked at some point by an invisible foe who kills me in seconds. That was pretty much it. Didn't take me long to lose interest in that.

Granted I knew nothing about PvP. I just thought I would go see what it was all about. But there doesn't seem to be a way to learn. You just get steamrolled until you quit. With PvE I had a learning curve, but it was also fun along the way.

I guess you are supposed to study the PvP forums for a period of time, spend time and money on a PvP build...and THEN go PvP. ....Seemed like way too much trouble.

I've seen my brother play PvP in other games and one difference I noticed was there were no invisible foes appearing out of nowhere along with travel powers. He seemed to know who he was fighting and no one could just hit and run.

But travel powers were a huge part of CoX so don't know how you do away with them.
I'll go for PVP in the regulator environment but just between consenting toon's ,
It's very entertaining to watch two peeps go at each other where I'm seating and enjoying the ambiance of the environment ...
I could even go for teams against teams in the city in full view of all player , and hopefully the PVP'ers will en-train the bad-ees while fighting just to through a wrench into the reduction gears...
Now that sounds like fun.

We sorta had that in the arena, no? Couldn't people come and watch a match? I can't remember. My brother and I went into the Arena once with 2 controllers and that was pretty fun. Neither one of us was doing anything special with a build.

Seems like most PvPers didn't like the arena though. My limited impression of them was they preferred to surprise attack someone and end it quickly.

I do know I liked how CoX handed it. They had zones for PvP and the Arena. I never had to think about PvP so that was fine with me.

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Re: PvP

Postby Turtlesandwich » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:26 am

I never spent any money on PVP toons. Just reorganised the way they where slotted.

There was a path towards pvp in COH. The pvp zones started low where powers were restricted all the way up to Recluse Victory.
I spent many months in Sirens Call which was restricted to lvl 30 therefore no one had their ultimate. After that i had the courage to try RV.

Bloody bay was the entry point and i first ventured in there with a team, before then i avoided pvp like the plague,. It was only when my SG leader suggested i try it as something else to do. as it was fun.

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Re: PvP

Postby GladDog » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:19 am

The one thing I did not like about PvP in CoH was that only one side had stalkers, or toons that could perform like assassins. They fixed that eventually. But I rather enjoyed the PvP in CoH. I went into the zones frequently, and never alone. 1 - you were too easy of a target for a Stalker and 2 - the villains rarely traveled alone either. Some of my fave experiences in CoH were in PvP zones, like the time I took out two Fire Brutes - TWICE! in a big battle. I still died eventually, but that did not sap the fun out of that fight.

Since there won't be any alliance exclusive ATs, I won't have any complaints at all about PvP. And I am glad it will be exclusively arena and RVR zones - I like PvP, but I don't want to live in a constantly PvP enabled world any more.

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Re: PvP

Postby JestersGhost » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:42 pm

It makes perfect sense to have certain levels be optional PvP.

The Division actually had a really good concept for their PvP - the explicit PvP area couldn't be monitored externally in the game story, so once there you were free to do what you liked, as it were, but player-killers were marked on the map and killing them gave additional rewards, and loot found in the area was dropped on death, so there was decent deterrent. It led to wonderfully tense moments with effectively mexican standoffs - everyone standing around, pointing their guns sort-of in the direction of the other players, just in case, but not actually at them, while waiting for the chopper that was going to airlift everyone's loot out of the area (which was summoned via flare, so /everyone/ knew there was at least once player with good loot they wanted extracted somewhere in that location).

It made for some fantastically tense gameplay (when not horribly broken because of the dumb network code they used), and that kind of system fits into the SoH lore perfectly.

We have areas the ship's crew are blind to because they're under Promethean control already as part of the lore. One of those would be perfectly suited to being a PvP level, a dark zone where anything could happen, but all the best Promethean research and technology is kept...going to be some amazing Augments in there, but there's only so many to go around...
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Re: PvP

Postby Turtlesandwich » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:14 am

Can we have Pillboxes or some such in the pvp zone?
This was very helpful if you were alone, it was also part of the zone game mechanic. If you managed to take one over you stood a good chance of surviving a ganking.

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