A formal request to exclude PvP

AxerJ
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby AxerJ » Sun May 13, 2018 6:29 pm

Yikes, you guys take what I said as toxic?

About dueling again - it could be restricted to a combat training building or something. So the game could avoid random duels occuring in the open. A building with dueling rooms or a dueling courtyard, or whatever else creative.

User avatar
Golden Ace
Posts: 2457
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:21 pm
Location: Woodbridge Virginia

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Golden Ace » Sun May 13, 2018 6:32 pm

Yikes, you guys take what I said as toxic?
nope. I did not.
♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♫

All Ship of Heroes Videos

IN BLACKEST DAY, IN BRIGHTEST NIGHT,
NO SPAM SHALL STAY UPON THIS SITE.
LET THOSE WHO POST THEIR SPAM-ISH SLIGHT
FACE THE POWER OF ACE'S MIGHT!

AxerJ
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby AxerJ » Sun May 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Ok, maybe I misunderstood then, but the 3rd and 4th post back seemed to suggest it, along with the lack of responding to my ideas.

I didnt entirely understand when first posting how this argument was more intended to prevent the lower quality player from running around the ship and polluting the environment. Being too much for the ship's atmospheric stabilizers. So we're afraid pvp would bring in these players, who would chat inane things and become thorns in pugs, guilds, and costume contests.

One response is to keep pvp activities separate, so at least most of their activity could be away. A dueling building and a simple, unbalanced, level-range-instanced ffa pvp zone could grant this.

So it becomes: does HG disallow pvp to prevent possible social issues? SoH doesnt need to have pvp, of course. I find it fun, and SoH may have a smaller population without it, but that could be OK. I feel, however, there are easy ways to address all the pvp concerns aside from the actual presence of those players in the game. And as everyone knows, there are many nice pvpers.

But it does seem to be a design choice to either include pvp and have a few of these people running around, or exclude it and lose some subs. I simply suggest the mechanic concerns around pvp can be adequately addressed, so at least those shouldnt be much of a factor.

A good, important discussion though, I think.

User avatar
GladDog
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Pottstown PA

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby GladDog » Sun May 13, 2018 7:56 pm

Right now the industry is working hard to purge the toxic players. Not because they care about us - they only care about money - but because things are happening in other games that have gotten way out of hand in real life, including people dying - yes, dying - because of toxic players.

Before the government steps in to overregulate, the industry is trying to fix things on their own. Lootboxes have shown them the way for what happens when the government gets involved.

IF these things work, then I have no problems with dueling, as long as I have an auto-decline button I can use.

I wanted to say that if another incident happens like what happened to my in DCUO, then I will change my tune. I was playing DCUO on my Xbox One, and some turdboy challenged me to duel. I declined. He challenged again. I declined. Altogether this happened about 12 times, so I left and went to do my mission, which was kill a bunch of bad guys on the street. He followed me and started killing all of the bad guys I needed. And then challenged me, again. And again. Ad again. I hit the recall button to go back to the Watchtower, and he figured out what I did, and followed me. And challenged me again. And again.

I logged out and have not logged onto the Xbox Version since, throwing away about 3 weeks of sub. I was already disillusioned about that game, and that was the final straw. So yeah, I have a bad taste in my mouth about dueling...
IN BRIGHTEST DAY, OR DARKEST NIGHT
NO SPAM SHALL STAY UPON THIS SITE
FOR THOSE THAT FEED THIS EVIL BLIGHT
BEWARE THE PAIN OF GUARD DOG'S BITE!

User avatar
Galactus55
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:14 pm
Location: Hamilton Ontario, Canada

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Galactus55 » Sun May 13, 2018 10:48 pm

Yikes, you guys take what I said as toxic?
nope. I did not.
Nope it was not no 1 post from anyone person that was Toxic just the whole post brings out a hint of it. It's a healthy discussion. No judgement just an observation.
Last edited by Galactus55 on Mon May 14, 2018 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
May your frame rate be HIGH
And your Temperature LOW

User avatar
Eulb
Posts: 1274
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:57 am
Location: San Diego

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Eulb » Mon May 14, 2018 12:13 am

Galactus55 ty for you post ...
Nope it was no 1 post from anyone person that was Toxic just the whole post brings out a hint of it. It's a healthy discussion. No judgement just an observation.
I'll go ferther and say Galactus ... if one wants to show up another by " I am Better Than You in combat " just thinking ... well that is just a slippery slope into " A Toxic environment " ... the ultimate goal of individual competition is " PRIDE " with one's self ...

The ultimate goal of team work is " I'm Proud of what we did together " there is no " I " in proud "
Let the bright stars ahead guide your journey

AxerJ
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby AxerJ » Mon May 14, 2018 4:03 am

Hope that never happens again, GladDog!

Eulb, I find pvp fun because it's unpredictable! More about the experience itself than the victory or loss. Because of this, it can be a great break from, or compliment to, pve. And I think the best pvp features teamwork.

Seems as if there are easy ways for pvp to coexist in the game. Question, then, is would HG rather potentially lose some subs or risk having more rude players contaminating the pve portion of the game? I'd understand either choice.

User avatar
GladDog
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Pottstown PA

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby GladDog » Mon May 14, 2018 4:52 am

I agree Axerj, pvp is a ton of fun and I look forward to seeing you on the battlefield!

I just don't want it to devolve to the level that some games have fallen.

A note; PvP won't be in the game until 2021 or later. There is plenty of time to get it right.
IN BRIGHTEST DAY, OR DARKEST NIGHT
NO SPAM SHALL STAY UPON THIS SITE
FOR THOSE THAT FEED THIS EVIL BLIGHT
BEWARE THE PAIN OF GUARD DOG'S BITE!

User avatar
Avatar PDM
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:56 am
Location: Germany

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Avatar PDM » Mon May 14, 2018 6:51 am

As I mentioned earlier before AxerJ
the emotions going with that whole topic are the main "problem" here. Many have had bad experiences with PvP, so it must be regulated (not necessarily with the powers but definitely in question of the how and where) but I think it is pretty clear by now, that the Devs are planning to do it and so it will eventually happen.
What is important now, is to do it right, so that the PvE Players and the PvP Players won´t disturb each other and won´t destroy each others fun experience. As I see it, there is only one way to do that and that is separation! If somebody wants to test his skills against somebody else that has to be on clearly defined ground.
I stated a few ideas already (which I believe some you already had too), but don´t have a problem repeating it

1. Arena - a building or room in a building which either as a gym or as a virtual riality enviroment (choosing from a dozen places maybe) players can meet to try each others out - nothing against that idea

2. An isolated area - A place where, so to speak, the heroes and police forces normally stay away from, because they lost control over it and therefore at that place anyone is good to go - that idea is dangerous, because players who accidentally get there can get into a lot of trouble and that is kind of a concept which was around at CoH before

3. A complete separate PvP Ship (maybe the Ship of Villains) or Planet - that would be the place, people would have to log in by choice and therefore decide, that they are willing to deal with whatever happens.

4. A player who plays a Villain (as soon as possible) is automatically a PvP Player and can be attacked by Heroes (One on One or more if activated), can attack other Villains and his chosen Nemesis (a PvP Hero, who decided, that he/she wants a Nemesis for extra thrills). All always combined with a Activation/Deactivation possibility - and maybe with Cloaking Ability as long as the Villain didn´t perform any villanous act and therefore does not attract any Heroes yet.

So these would be my idea to realize PvP (going with the thought that PvP won´t be avoidable)
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

AxerJ
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby AxerJ » Mon May 14, 2018 10:00 pm

Cool, Glad!

And thanks for the thoughtful post, Avatar! Good ideas in there. I quite like the idea of villains being pvpers, even able to attack other villains! That is a fresh, but logical, idea.

I dont quite see why a dueling building couldn't at least be included around launch - unless pvp balancing is considered important. But whatever HG deems wise will be fine with me. A dueling place could be an underground fight pit run by the cyborgs or renegade mages, and after we engage with it normal merchants charge us higher prices until we defeat a lot more pve enemies :P (JK)

User avatar
Eulb
Posts: 1274
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:57 am
Location: San Diego

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Eulb » Tue May 15, 2018 1:27 am

Axerj ty for your post ...
Eulb, I find pvp fun because it's unpredictable! More about the experience itself than the victory or loss.
I do know a few peeps that like pvp and yes it can be fun... It's not for me
I do want pvp in the game from its a part of mmorpg ... and you are right ...
there are way to have pvp in the game ...I'm trusting the DEV's will pick the best way to install in the game so as to kept those who crave pvp
Seems as if there are easy ways for pvp to coexist in the game.
Avatar PDM has a few good ideas see above ... another one I have thought a lot about a lot ... comes from " Ashes of Creation " where after a team mission, a coin is dropped , and a player that has that coin can redeem that coin and then has the power to become a " BOSS " or "Arch Villian " on a temporary time table ...
and that player can battle the all the heroes he wants until he dies , that would add another possible way to have pvp in the game ... what rewards or badges the player would get is up to again the DEV's...
Let the bright stars ahead guide your journey

User avatar
Avatar PDM
Posts: 1071
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:56 am
Location: Germany

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Avatar PDM » Tue May 15, 2018 2:33 am

Axerj ty for your post ...
Eulb, I find pvp fun because it's unpredictable! More about the experience itself than the victory or loss.
I do know a few peeps that like pvp and yes it can be fun... It's not for me
I do want pvp in the game from its a part of mmorpg ... and you are right ...
there are way to have pvp in the game ...I'm trusting the DEV's will pick the best way to install in the game so as to kept those who crave pvp
Seems as if there are easy ways for pvp to coexist in the game.
Avatar PDM has a few good ideas see above ... another one I have thought a lot about a lot ... comes from " Ashes of Creation " where after a team mission, a coin is dropped , and a player that has that coin can redeem that coin and then has the power to become a " BOSS " or "Arch Villian " on a temporary time table ...
and that player can battle the all the heroes he wants until he dies , that would add another possible way to have pvp in the game ... what rewards or badges the player would get is up to again the DEV's...
I am not sure if I understand you right with that concept but I think we have to make sure, that only those players who are willing to be a part of the PvP World will be included
What is Reality, what a Dream? Is the dream changing your reality or is the reality defining your dreams? Only one being aware, that awareness can never be complete can use both to become the best possible and combine both to form the future! PDM

User avatar
Echo Magnus
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:00 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Echo Magnus » Wed May 16, 2018 11:44 am

"snip"
I wanted to say that if another incident happens like what happened to my in DCUO, then I will change my tune. I was playing DCUO on my Xbox One, and some turdboy challenged me to duel. I declined. He challenged again. I declined. Altogether this happened about 12 times, so I left and went to do my mission, which was kill a bunch of bad guys on the street. He followed me and started killing all of the bad guys I needed. And then challenged me, again. And again. Ad again. I hit the recall button to go back to the Watchtower, and he figured out what I did, and followed me. And challenged me again. And again.
"snip"
I was intimately involved with DCUO, so I will outline here some of the options for avoiding people like that:

You can move in to multiple phases. (Phases are like partitions of a server)
- Change from PvP side to PvE side of the server.
- Relog, which can change the phase
- Turn on Auto-Decline
- Enter into a Solo, Duo, etc. (Unless Sub 30, then there are sub 30 instances for you to enter which outside of a group are exclusive to you)
- There is Feats to accomplish, which was one of my favorite past times, because that was a laundry list of extra content that benefits the player equal to leveling up/missions. In the End Game, Feats are the what separated The Best from the Alright. So there was/is always something else to do.

I mean no offense by any of this, I just wanted to further inform you about aspects of that game you may not have been aware of. For about a year of that game I was one of the top 10 players PvE and Top 50 PvP (Ranked Officially online), so I'm not blowing smoke up your bum either.

I see that you were playing on the XBOX though... That being said, you came in too late in the process (even after my time), which means you were dealing with the community after it had already fallen a part. The top leagues left back in 2015/16 after Daybreak Games took over, and that game hasn't been the same since. There was a lot of players are from non-english speaking nations because the game is F2P, and was originally Sony, so it reached a lot of different countries. This played a big factor. The last League I was apart of had players from literally all over the world. The diversity was great, but each culture brought with them their own list of must and must not's. Inevitably this can disintegrate a game.

The point I am making here, is that I hate for an experience you had -- one that I know could have been avoided in multiple ways, and furthermore was perpetuated by a souring community -- to exclude an entire aspect of the game.

Here's what I think DCUO did right about PvP:
- They created separate gear sets for PvE and PvP, which allowed for players who wanted to specialize to do so.
- This allowed for them also to make small adjustments to how damage was measured against other players, and how damage was measured against the environment. Which meant that different skill sets/combinations were utilized depending on whether or not you were PvE/PvP.
- This provided separate avenues for players to pursue, and separate goals to obtain. Top PvE weren't by default good at dueling because of the PvE experience/gear, and vica versa for PvP players.
- They split the Server into a PvP and PvE phases. This allowed for players who wanted to focus on PvP, whether permanently or otherwise, to go somewhere where all other players there were after or interested in the same thing. As such, the "toxic trash talk" remained separate from non PvP players.

Here's what I think DCUO did wrong about PvP:
- They started adjusting the powersets based on player complaints. This would inadvertanly effect the seperate communities. A Nerf to PvE may have resulted in an unintentional buff to PvP. The community would be outraged about this every time.
- As new players came in, and the gap between top players and new players grew -- new players didn't want to have to put in all the hours to catch up to top players, so they made it easier to max out. This sent a lot of players packing as the all their effort suddenly amounted to nothing. This did and has always soured PvP communities
- The Devs pit PvP players and PvE players against each other by blaming one or the other for "complaining too much".
- Adjustments to powers would come at the whim of the Devs, and would be done in such away that the power adjusted would become unquestionably the most powerful one, created serious balance issues.
- No Ranking system, which drove Veteran PvPers away.

I talked to many of the DCUO Devs in DM's. Tunso in perticular shed lite on this, and mentioned they had all got tired of listening to players after the first 2 years, and as such there was quiet resentment. So as time passed, they stopped listening, and the whole community started blaming each other for it.

This was not the case for the next MMORPG that I played, Skyforge. Like this game, I arrived early enough in the process of Skyforge to get on for early access beta. I was able to help shape and mold the community, as well as be there to witness a community before it's had the opportunity to rot.

What I learned was that a community only starts to fall apart after the failure of communication begins happening between the Players (PvE and PvP) and the Developers. Developers love to excuse themselves from responsibility for communities, but they play one of the largest roles in it. At DCUO's peak, they had one of there Devs, primarily responsible for HR, constantly holding events for players, updating the players, "leaking"information to players, etc. The whole ordeal increased everyone's involvement in the game PvE and PvP alike, and as such everyone got a long a little bit better. Players inadvertently see Devs as Pseudo-Leaders in the game, like the Staff at school, etc. As long as the Devs maintain their composure and don't allow for themselves to be overwhelmed by the community, the community tends to stay in line. As soon as they even appear to pick a favorite, players rally against one another.

With the Devs in check, the players naturally kept themselves in check. They typically did so in the forums, where the community holistically hashed out "Do's and Don'ts". As long as Moderators were doing their job, and more importantly no overdoing it, debates happened, but they were absent hate and anger.

The Long-Short of this: PvP can not be blamed for anything. It is on the community as a whole to balance and maintain all aspects of that community. An inability to do so is a failure of the entire community to self govern. If a community cannot govern itself, then it will default to tyranny and chaos. Fingers will be point, and always in the direction away from the complainant.

I strongly disagree with the exclusion of PvP on the grounds of it's potential to maybe sour the community. If a community goes south, it is never as simple as one problem, or one solution.

I vote you give players the option to do the following in lou of scrapping PvP:
- "/ignore "player name"
- Ignore all duel invites.
- Separate Phases for PvP and PvE focused players.
- Actual Powers balancing/testing with actual players while supervised by Devs to create powers that actually are balanced. Which means that one power should never be the "Go to or you're a Noob". I hate that Devs ignore doing this process with players. It's the very reason why Devs never get power balancing right, because they're too stubborn, lol. This keeps people out of the forums bickering about how "unfair it is" and in the forums comparing ideas and combos.
- PvP events balanced for all players so as to encourage PvE and PvP player cohesion. And Vice Versa.
- Perhaps down the road, have Rankings for PvP players. PvPers are just hyper-competitive. It's not a bad thing, it's just energy that needs to be directed or it does make its way into the chat rooms. If there is clear goals and incentives for the PvP community as well, then you completely avoid ALL of the issues people are citing in this thread.
- Create separate forum sections so PvE and PvP are not conflated with each other.
- Finally, I vote there be a system by which players can be reported that doesn't result in auto-bans, but is actually inspected by someone elected by the community to hand out repercussions for behaving outside of communal social guidelines. If a player is just talking trash, ignore them. But if they are truly being harmful to the community, report them. If there is accountability for your social reputation, then people will behave. I, however, a player can say whatever they want and there isn't due punishment... Your community will sour.

I've had too many good friends online that I met in PvP, even though I was and have always been a PvE player first. I refuse to exclude an entire community out of "fear of what could maybe possibly happen down the road if we all of us let it".

What I want is a community that doesn't ban things out of fear, but includes them and then stays actively involved in the growth and development of that aspect of the community. It is our lack of participation in each other that leads to our inability to coexist.

User avatar
Golden Ace
Posts: 2457
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:21 pm
Location: Woodbridge Virginia

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby Golden Ace » Wed May 16, 2018 12:09 pm

That was a very good read echo. Thank you for your very insightful input. It is much appreciated.
♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♫

All Ship of Heroes Videos

IN BLACKEST DAY, IN BRIGHTEST NIGHT,
NO SPAM SHALL STAY UPON THIS SITE.
LET THOSE WHO POST THEIR SPAM-ISH SLIGHT
FACE THE POWER OF ACE'S MIGHT!

User avatar
GladDog
Posts: 1803
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Pottstown PA

Re: A formal request to exclude PvP

Postby GladDog » Wed May 16, 2018 1:51 pm

I was an Alpha and Beta tester for DCUO on the PC, as well as the tech guy on the pre-release DCUOsource.com website. I played the game for about a year and a half after release, playing simultaneously with CoH for about a year. I had one character at CR88 when the highest possible was CR95. I really liked DCUO, and I would have to say that their downfall was going F2P, which attracted a lot of players that had zero sense of community. I have an Xbox One S, and when I got the itch to play a superhero game again, I figured, what the hey and went in on that platform.

I level capped 4 characters on the Xbox and got 2 of them over 100 CR, but that lack of community... the higher I leveled, the more noticeable it got. As I was struggling to get my CR up to where I could do reasonably high raids, I kept on bumping heads with players that seemed determined to keep me, and others in my situation, from getting ahead. I guess they thought that was 'fun'. The guy who continually tried to duel (I could not find an auto-decline on the One S) with me was just the last straw.

DCUO was/ is a fun game, but until they figure out how to build a proper sense of community, its not going to grow any more.
IN BRIGHTEST DAY, OR DARKEST NIGHT
NO SPAM SHALL STAY UPON THIS SITE
FOR THOSE THAT FEED THIS EVIL BLIGHT
BEWARE THE PAIN OF GUARD DOG'S BITE!


Return to “Ask the Devs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests