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Crafting
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Consultant
1842 Posts
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26
January 11, 2023 - 1:46 pm

We have no plan to have failure in crafting and we love the idea of having occasional crafting boosts.

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Golden Ace
2192 Posts
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January 10, 2023 - 10:14 pm

JestersGhost said

So yeah, don't have failures for crafting. What you *can* do however, is have critical successes. That is, a chance to make more or a better version of an item. That's a cool little dopamine hit every so often, and easily balanced by, as mentioned above, simply increasing the material requirements so the same number get made per components, just with a nicer feel to the psychology.  

great idea. love it.

Sometimes You Feel Like a Tank, Sometimes You Don't

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JestersGhost
956 Posts
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January 10, 2023 - 12:42 pm

Indeed, functional bases are something I'm very keen to see.

The suggestion made think of another major aspect of crafting - success rates and result quality.

I've played MMO's (thankfully rare) that have a failure chance on crafting. This is horrible and bad.

Either:
a) You lose (some or all of) the crafting materials. This feels terrible, especially if they're high-end or rare. Imagine getting the last rare component you need for an item after hours of farming a mob, slot everything in, hit the button, and BANG, you fail and get nothing. It is also, *absolutely pointless*. If you want to limit how many items can be made, the exact same effect is created by simply increasing how many materials are needed.
eg. You are crafting something that has a 20% to fail. So you make it five times, and (on average) have four success. If you simply required 20% more materials to make the item with 100% success, you'd also get four items, from the same amount of materials, with no horrible-feeling failures. Instead of skill improving the success rate, you simply lower the material cost instead (or see my point below).

b) You don't lose anything, just have to make it again. This is annoying, and again, totally unnecessary. It's literally just an artificial time-penalty to crafting, and makes the process feel unnecessarily tedious. If you want to slow people down just have the process take a bit longer so it averages out, but generally time watching a progress bar move *shouldn't* be the thing you're trying to extend.

So yeah, don't have failures for crafting. What you *can* do however, is have critical successes. That is, a chance to make more or a better version of an item. That's a cool little dopamine hit every so often, and easily balanced by, as mentioned above, simply increasing the material requirements so the same number get made per components, just with a nicer feel to the psychology.

So anyway, absolutely love the idea of crafting tables for bases, with, yeah, the potential for maybe getting improved versions over "public" tables that have critical successes (or increased chances thereof).

quantum sufficit

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Consultant
1842 Posts
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January 7, 2023 - 8:17 am

Gerald_Deemer said
As housing and SG housing plays a big role in SoH there was an idea coming to my mind in combination with crafting.

It would be cool to have upgradeable crafting tables in the house/SG base. The higher you upgrade them the better is the chance to craft something of value. Or it may take influence on the success rate of the item to craft. Of course every level of improvement should be very expensive using ingame money/ressources. Only very active players and SGs should be able to buy all upgrades. Also a SG crafting table should be more worth as a single player crafting table.

But it would give the home or SG home a real sence. Players would go there to craft items because the success rates are higher.  

Thank you for this very interesting post. Your ideas have sparked a lot of discussion among the dev team. I like your idea and I think we should be encouraging supergroups to provide more than just social benefits to players. Keep those ideas coming.

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Gerald_Deemer
212 Posts
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January 6, 2023 - 8:25 am

Consultant said
We will start with five crafting areas of expertise. A character learns about each of them by doing some missions with each of the big five NPC heroes.
Here's a question for the community: should a single character learn one and only one crafting discipline, or should a single charcter be able to learn all five?  

I think if a character specializes on one crafting discipline should be fine. So you need either level more characters to learn all disciplines or just make friends and join SGs with other players to get access to items of other disciplines. If one toon can learn all would only push the solo players and you see where this leads in other mmos...

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Gerald_Deemer
212 Posts
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January 6, 2023 - 8:21 am

As housing and SG housing plays a big role in SoH there was an idea coming to my mind in combination with crafting.

It would be cool to have upgradeable crafting tables in the house/SG base. The higher you upgrade them the better is the chance to craft something of value. Or it may take influence on the success rate of the item to craft. Of course every level of improvement should be very expensive using ingame money/ressources. Only very active players and SGs should be able to buy all upgrades. Also a SG crafting table should be more worth as a single player crafting table.

But it would give the home or SG home a real sence. Players would go there to craft items because the success rates are higher.

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GladDog
1740 Posts
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February 10, 2020 - 7:32 pm

This is my crafting idea, submitted a couple of years ago...

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t=668&p=7739&hilit=crafting#p7739

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SweetSugar
32 Posts
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19
February 9, 2020 - 6:17 pm

"Golden Ace" post_id=24917 time=1581288864 user_id=4430 said:

have not played in a few years, but this is new to me. so are the low level components used in all high level crafting? is it a tree where you build 5 low level components to assemble a medium level component? then 5 medium for one high level? etc?

The crafting components are used in new items like Conquest items - things your guild needs to take over a planet. (like vehicles or command items) There is also some high level gear that needs components.

For instance, if you know the system, you can have 1 crafting skill and 2 other skills. Most crafts need a gathering mat (like archaeology) and a mission skill mat (like underworld trading). You can make grade 1 through 9 or 10 assembly components with your mats. Then as you get into the high level crafting, you start needing these components as materials. You can't just take the assembly components and make an item out of them, nor do I think you can upgrade like 10 grade 1's into a grade 2 or anything like that.

Also, each of the 6 crafting skills makes different assembly components. The crafting skills generally need the same assembly components they themselves can craft.

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Golden Ace
2192 Posts
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February 9, 2020 - 5:54 pm

SweetSugar post_id=24916 time=1581288100 user_id=2565 said:

One thing I do like in SWTOR is a recent change. You can do all your low level crafting making "Assembly Components" - which are parts needed to make higher level stuff. No more making 20 grade 1 lightsabers, 20 grade 2 lightsabers, etc.

have not played in a few years, but this is new to me. so are the low level components used in all high level crafting? is it a tree where you build 5 low level components to assemble a medium level component? then 5 medium for one high level? etc?

Sometimes You Feel Like a Tank, Sometimes You Don't

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SweetSugar
32 Posts
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February 9, 2020 - 5:41 pm

Oh yeah and 2 things I hated in SWTOR crafting.

Being forced to create hundreds of low-level junk gear to level crafting. You can't sell 50 level 2 gauntlets in the store when the drops are better, and the characters will only be level 2 for 8 minutes.

Also materials that only drop in multiplayer dungeons - you can't make blah because you have to play some 8 player dungeons 24 times and win all the rolls.

One thing I do like in SWTOR is a recent change. You can do all your low level crafting making "Assembly Components" - which are parts needed to make higher level stuff. No more making 20 grade 1 lightsabers, 20 grade 2 lightsabers, etc.

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JestersGhost
956 Posts
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16
January 28, 2020 - 11:07 am

olepi post_id=24873 time=1580056969 user_id=6950 said:

I guess the first question to ask is: what is there to craft? Is this going to be a gear game, with armor and weapons to be crafted?
Or is it like CoH where you really don't have armor and weapons, so crafting is basically for stims and enhancements? Can we craft badges?

Like CoH - enhancements are called Augments for SoH, but are otherwise the same concept. Other craftable things include temporary powers and boosts.

olepi post_id=24873 time=1580056969 user_id=6950 said:

The next question is: how important are the crafters? In Ryzom for instance, weapons, armor, etc do not drop from quests or mobs. Only mats drop, and *everything* in the game is crafted. Or do the quests/mobs drop stuff that is just as good as what is crafted, so that crafting is just a personal hobby?

Well, that was kind of one of the original questions - how important do you want it to be? 😛

olepi post_id=24873 time=1580056969 user_id=6950 said:

And what materials will be used for crafting? Are there special mats that require hunting down? Or will mats just drop from mobs or be found just lying around? are there real "gathering" professions? For example, in LoTRO the mats are just lying around on the surface, but you have to have the right profession to get them. In Ryzom mats have to be prospected for with skills and then dug up with different skills.

Mats will drop from mobs. Harder mobs drop rarer mats.

olepi post_id=24873 time=1580056969 user_id=6950 said:

Also, what are the mechanics of crafting? Just hit a button anywhere? Do you have to be at a crafting table? Is crafting a mini-game where you have to interact to get the best output? Does crafting have levels of skill? Different recipes or blueprints to learn? Different professions? and how many can you learn at once? What about deconstructing items?

Again, this is potentially one of the open questions, though I imagine most people will be leaning towards somewhere in the direction of "how CoH did it" 🙂

olepi post_id=24873 time=1580056969 user_id=6950 said:

Finally, what kind of economy is there going to be, and how does crafting fit into that? Can we make profits from crafting? Or do we have to spend money to craft, making it a money sink?

You can make money from crafting if you want, though to do so you'd have to spend time killing things for the mats.

olepi post_id=24873 time=1580056969 user_id=6950 said:

My votes would be:
1) no gear crafting, just stims and enhancements, with some possible special temp powers or badges
2) the best items are crafted, but getting to that level will take a long time. Dropped items are 85% as good.
3) have a combination of dropped mats, and special mats that have to be searched out (maybe as part of a quest)
4) crafting is just hitting a button at a crafting table, except for special items like temp powers. that could require a mini-game to get the best result. Crafting skills are limited to one or two per player, crafting does level, and blueprints have to be discovered or bought. Some items can be deconstructed to get mats.
5) the economy should allow a crafter to make a profit, not just be a money sink

Example: with a technology background, I joined the Engineering Section and can find Engineering mats and items to deconstruct. I can make simple stims and basic enhancements for all types. Using special mats, I can learn to craft special items like temp powers in Engineering, or special Engineering stims with extra bonuses. Crafting the special things requires a mini-game at an Engineering crafting table. Running missions in the Engineering section and defeating certain bosses in Engineering grants special mats for these special items.

Sounds like you'll like what's planned then 😀

quantum sufficit

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olepi
197 Posts
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January 26, 2020 - 11:42 am

I guess the first question to ask is: what is there to craft? Is this going to be a gear game, with armor and weapons to be crafted?
Or is it like CoH where you really don't have armor and weapons, so crafting is basically for stims and enhancements? Can we craft badges?

The next question is: how important are the crafters? In Ryzom for instance, weapons, armor, etc do not drop from quests or mobs. Only mats drop, and *everything* in the game is crafted. Or do the quests/mobs drop stuff that is just as good as what is crafted, so that crafting is just a personal hobby?

And what materials will be used for crafting? Are there special mats that require hunting down? Or will mats just drop from mobs or be found just lying around? are there real "gathering" professions? For example, in LoTRO the mats are just lying around on the surface, but you have to have the right profession to get them. In Ryzom mats have to be prospected for with skills and then dug up with different skills.

Also, what are the mechanics of crafting? Just hit a button anywhere? Do you have to be at a crafting table? Is crafting a mini-game where you have to interact to get the best output? Does crafting have levels of skill? Different recipes or blueprints to learn? Different professions? and how many can you learn at once? What about deconstructing items?

Finally, what kind of economy is there going to be, and how does crafting fit into that? Can we make profits from crafting? Or do we have to spend money to craft, making it a money sink?

My votes would be:
1) no gear crafting, just stims and enhancements, with some possible special temp powers or badges
2) the best items are crafted, but getting to that level will take a long time. Dropped items are 85% as good.
3) have a combination of dropped mats, and special mats that have to be searched out (maybe as part of a quest)
4) crafting is just hitting a button at a crafting table, except for special items like temp powers. that could require a mini-game to get the best result. Crafting skills are limited to one or two per player, crafting does level, and blueprints have to be discovered or bought. Some items can be deconstructed to get mats.
5) the economy should allow a crafter to make a profit, not just be a money sink

Example: with a technology background, I joined the Engineering Section and can find Engineering mats and items to deconstruct. I can make simple stims and basic enhancements for all types. Using special mats, I can learn to craft special items like temp powers in Engineering, or special Engineering stims with extra bonuses. Crafting the special things requires a mini-game at an Engineering crafting table. Running missions in the Engineering section and defeating certain bosses in Engineering grants special mats for these special items.

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GladDog
1740 Posts
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January 23, 2020 - 1:28 pm

IMO, every character should have the opportunity to learn all 5. I would think it should be something like this;

Learning your first crafting discipline is quick, most players master it within the first few levels.

Afterwards, each discipline takes progressively longer. It may take until the level cap reaches 50 before you have the opportunity to learn all of them.

By making it progressively longer, a player has to decide what order they want to make them, since it may take a loooooooong time between the 2nd mastery and the third.

Happy Thoughts
18 Posts
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January 23, 2020 - 9:19 am

Consultant post_id=24836 time=1579433091 user_id=53 said:
Here's a question for the community: should a single character learn one and only one crafting discipline, or should a single charcter be able to learn all five?

Any character should be able to learn all crafting disciplines.

Having a requirement for a player to have to switch around characters--or, in some cases, create separate characters for the specific purpose of crafting specific disciplines--only causes a level of frustration and tedium for the player and doesn't add to the gameplay experience. Especially if shuffling of materials/ingredients is involved.

The thing that turns me away from crafting faster than anything else is if there's a mini-game involved to make every single item. The worst offender I've experienced was EverQuest 2, where you had to reactively respond to events with specific crafting skills while the item was being made. Every time, for each item. I much prefer the "click and create" systems like City of Heroes has.

If there's a chance of failure based on relative skill level to the item being created, that's fine. But failure shouldn't be a player dexterity/latency check.

drbuzzard
13 Posts
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12
January 21, 2020 - 10:38 am

While I have no objection to the idea of crafting, I'm certainly hoping this isn't a primarily gear based game. Something akin to enhancements and the IO system of COH would be fine. Anything like DCUO would make me greatly regret putting money into this game.

As for crafting making the best stuff, I'd say OK to that if it were not the exclusively best stuff. Better to have both crafting and earning as potential ways to get the best.

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A1fighter
382 Posts
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11
January 20, 2020 - 4:58 pm

This is more of a crafting request, but I digress..

People have been inquiring about a transforming power-set. DCUO & CO have trinkets which change players into enemies within the game in their cash shop. It would be great if stuff like this were craft-able. This would be a great cheat around making an entire power-set based off of it.

How it works in DCUO & CO? Use the trinkets, change into the monsters while gaining all their powers and movements but none of yours.

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Itlandm
124 Posts
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10
January 20, 2020 - 12:00 pm

OK, to contribute something hopefully useful.

What I'd like to see: Gear heroes (think Iron Man, for a showcase) who need to craft, but who also have a massive bonus to it and massive benefits from it, to the point where their progression in the game is on a par with other non-gear heroes.

What I'd tolerate: CoH style crafting, where crafting gives you an edge or a modest benefit, and is necessary if you want to stand out from the crowd and punch above your weight class.

What would make me leave and close the door behind me:
Personal crafting or membership in a guild with dedicated crafters is necessary for
-access to all game content
-being accepted in most teams
-reasonably normal leveling speed (within about 15%, I'd say).

So for instance, let's say Pegasus 3 hours a day doing missions and no crafting. Iron Horse spends 2:30 a day on missions and 0:30 on crafting, for a total of 3 hours a day. They both level up at the same speed (or within 15% of each other), that is wonderful and the way things should be. If one of them advances much faster than the other, the game is broken and needs fixing.

I am undecided about specialized crafting characters. Maybe crafting should give XP, but it still won't give you the actual combat experience to handle a battle. Then again, neither does power leveling, and that is a staple in MMORPGs.

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Itlandm
124 Posts
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9
January 20, 2020 - 11:21 am

OK, let me try this again.

I disagree strongly with the thought that "crafting should matter". This sounds like a completely different game from what I have supported up to now.

Maybe I have misunderstood. I'm following this thread and hopefully I'll learn more before I make a final decision.

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JestersGhost
956 Posts
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January 20, 2020 - 5:35 am

Agreed, best stuff in game should be craftable. I love that idea. Or, it matches, but craftable stuff has room for some additional variation.

On a MUD (text-based MMO for you young whippersnappers) I used to play, the stuff you crafted was equal to the top-tier loot, but you could make it exactly to spec - the description (remember, text-based, so how it looked was entirely up to you) and your choice of bonuses and buffs. I made a decent living in game making people armour to order.

So for SoH, if, say, we have something similar to sets of augments that give small bonuses as a group, crafted sets could pick their group bonuses? So a top end augment and a crafted augment might both do +40% accuracy (or whatever), but the if the set bonus for the dropped augment is +resist and you want +defense then you'll need a crafted one (maybe some basic restrictions like each bonus has to be different).

Regarding the crafting skills, I like the idea of limiting them to one or two per character, but as Pyrion has already said that wouldn't really make any difference because you can have multiple characters. So there is no real point limiting how many you can learn, but if they take a long time to learn then it has a similar effect - people may only ever grind up one or two unless they're really dedicated.

And my final suggestion, combining both these points: crafted augment "sets" are made up of one augment from one of each skill. So to get the maximum benefit from the customisable set bonuses, you've either got to learn all five, or get someone else to make you the others. And for slotting, since we have eight slots, that means you can only fit one "full" set in, or two not-quite-full sets, which makes for another interesting choice (since the available bonuses would be bigger the closer you were to a full set).

quantum sufficit

Pyrion
203 Posts
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January 20, 2020 - 5:07 am

If you want to encourage player interaction, you could allow only one of the skills per character.

But of course what would happen in that case is that people would just spread the skills to their other characters and move half made items around.

One idea for that would be that certain items need actual crafter groups working together at the same time.

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